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I start promode Pokerchamps long before Betunfair buy PokerChamps.
And yess PokerChamps was offer rakeback to affiliates and all players on a special point system.
And now they remove all my players from PokerChamps to Betunfair :banger:
OWN YOUR PLAYERS FOR LIFE WHAT A JOKE MANN.
Thanks Poker,
kept me from putting my foot in mouth any further…. ya .. that is sad.
sorry DC ….that is …. if you weren’t running other rakebacks that aren’t offered to any aff that promotes the site.
I have no sympathy for anyone stealing other’s players. And make no effort cover that up.
I stop promode all poker sites.
They are all NOT honest.Stealing players,super users and stats not counting :wavey:
Good for you DC, you’re one of the good guys. there are so few left around in the poker industry …
and the ones that are ….. continue to suffer the consequence of rakebackers.
I come from a business (offline – family) where the competition was guilty of the same thing as rakeback. that’s why I recognized it so early and left poker alone. I saw it coming.
You can’t continue to cut each other’s throats (rakebackers) and not expect to someday run yourselves out of business. Or at least suffer a great and unnecessary loss. Its that simple and I suspect this is already being felt by some of those who caused it to happen.
There is a reason you can’t buy cars for extremely cheaper prices one place than the other even though the profit margin on them is large. They figured out a long time ago that this is the result. The car makers continued to get their price while the retailers started dropping off the map.
Yes there are still “sales” but they make up and get their price (bottom line) in the end with different approaches etc. I suspect this has already been recognized by some poker rooms which is why (as someone said) they have put bottom lines on amount of kickbacks you can pay.
But its all so unnecessary. Of course this falls on deaf ears of those who have stolen thousands of player from other legit affs who earned their players the hard way. That is expected.
But in the end …. what I have said is true. YOU cannot cut throats and not expect someday to fall to same fate. Its a time proven principle.
bb1webs;142710 wrote:I’d like to add its a simple equation. everyone keeps cutting the others throats .. such as offering rakeback … and we all lose.I am so sick at listening to affiliates talking about rakeback. Especially because no one seems to be thinking about there customers – the players!
Rakeback is a rebate on the product. Would you also expect the manager of a gas station to cry about his competitors being cheaper than him?
No, of course not. You either get with the program or get out!
I can’t believe that rebates on poker as a product comes as a suprise. This is a market with low entry barriers and easy ways of communicating with the customer. As long as there is a profit there will be people lowering this in order to attract the players.
Crying out about people offering the customer more is simply just stupid and pointless.
Notice that I am only talking about rakeback as a product here.
It is insane that the pokerrooms aren’t honering the “Revenue share for life” concept. Affiliates have 2 options today: They can attract new players and get a high revenue share deal or they can attract the established players with rakeback/bonusses/other costly promotions and get a smaller percentage.
Both models are fair and it is up to the affiliates to choose. But we all know that 20% of the players are putting up 80% of the revenue and if all the valuable players get snatched by the rakeback affiliates then you can’t create anything worth an hour of your time.
So we agree on the fact that the re-tracking of players from a revenue share affiliate is BS and need to be stopped!
And we also agree on the fact that RTR and other affiliates who try to educate the players regarding re-tracking are crooks.
But to attack rakeback as a product in itself is ridicolous.
Regards,
MikeAffiliates should not be involved in rakeback, the poker rooms should comp the players appropriately like the casinos comp the VIP players.
I don’t see why affiliate should comp players.
Nowhere else do advertisers pay people to buy a product – it’s up to the product to make itself attractive.
For several years casino affiliates have been paid to much. Challenge any business analyst to try and understand the online casino business and his first question is going to be: “Why are the affiliates being overpaid?”
It is only natural that the affiliate revenue share decreases. When the day is done the poker rooms aren’t raking in high percentages (if you look at networks like Boss Media and Cryptologic a lot of them are flat out losing money) so why should the affiliates?
When a market starts maturing it is normal that revenue decrease bacause the competition heats up. Now a days the lion’s share of the revenue lies with the affiliate so it is only natural that a lot of these give up some revenue in order to create better promotions for the players.
And please do remember the players!
I don’t think I have ever witnessed an affiliate discussion where people actually considered the customer. I am quite certain that we owe our status as Denmarks biggest poker affiliate to the fact that we have always done what we thought was best for the players.
Yes, re-tracking is BAD! No doubt! No one wants to bring in new players to the game if these can be re-tracked by some shady rakeback affiliate. I agree with Ben from casinolisten on this matter and I understand his frustration as a rev share affiliate.
But there are a disturbing amount of rev share affiliates who are simply pointing their finger at the rakeback affiliates as if they should feel ashamed becuase they are giving more to the players.
This is simply wrong. Rakeback is just another way of attacking this market. It has nothing to do with stealing unless it is done “the RTR way”. Teaching players how to re-track is simply shady at best.
But in the end the main problem is the poker networks. I have had poker rooms writing me with stuff like: “I just moved 5 players to your account because they wanted rakeback – can we get a better spot?”.
The networks have the power to stop this but as long as they aren’t seing any consequences they are going to continue re-tracking players to rakeback affiliates in order to keep them.
Regards,
MikeAffiates are not paid at all unless they create revenue, and then they are paid a % of the profits. How can that be overpaying?
Any brick and mortar business would squeal in delight if hundreds of people were to sell their product for them and the business never paid a penny unless it made money from these sales.
Affiliates can’t possibly make more money than the casinos if they are being paid a % of the profits, I haven’t seen any 60% offers around.
And players could care less who comps them – you or the casino. The main thing is that they get comped.
@Dominique 143041 wrote:
And players could care less who comps them – you or the casino. The main thing is that they get comped.
I have to agree with Dom here. Players really don’t care if they are under a tracker or not. They care about the deposit bonus, the reload and/or comps and the ease of deposit/withdraw. Other than that I wouldn’t say they have any other issues apart from the gaming.
Now I believe the ‘overpaying’ statement comes from smaller casinos who feel they must shell out high CPA amounts to build any sort of database and then find out their VPP (value per player) ends up being less than the amount they shelled out. We all cant have those whales daily
Dan you have a whopping 3 posts here at CAP. Just how much could you have heard?
Stay in the biz a few years …. build up a player base and then have them stolen out from under you and then come back tell me how you feel.
Dom is right. Any kickback should be provided by the poker rooms… not by advertisers.
and if you would have read all my posts you’d have seen that I said that very thing. We as advertisers need a level playing field. If a poker room chooses to allow rakeback ….. make it possible for us all.
and yes …… it reaches a point where you end up basically doing all the work for nothing following your logic that you are against stealing players (which is going to happen whether it is meant or not) …. when the field of play isn’t level.
Much work goes into creating these sites and back when I started there was no thing as rakeback. I created sites with the understanding that I would be given a fair and honest pay return same as everyone else. Its hardly the same as complaining that the gas station across the street is selling for a penny less a gallon.
“Affiates are not paid at all unless they create revenue, and then they are paid a % of the profits. How can that be overpaying?”
Considering that this is a discussion about rakeback in the poker world this is not true. For a typical skin on for instance Crypto the numbers could look like this (when working with a large affiliate):
Network costs: 20%
Banking costs: 5%
Affiliate payments: 35-40%
Bonusses and promotions: 25-30%This leaves a 5-15% profit margin for the pokerroom (and often they are working closer to 5 than to 15). You ARE as an affiliate making more money than most of the pokerrooms on your players!
What rakeback affiliates does is simply to accept a lower commision so that the players can get better comps. What is wrong with that?
At the end of the day it is the pokerroom who are paying the players. We as affiliates have simply acceptet to get less in order to give the players more.
bb1webs;143050 wrote:Dan you have a whopping 3 posts here at CAP. Just how much could you have heard?Stay in the biz a few years …. build up a player base and then have them stolen out from under you and then come back tell me how you feel.
I have been in this business for several years and I have a player base of more than 40.000 players. I have been cheated by affiliate program (re-tracking, scalping etc.) and have players stolen by rakeback affiliates (we work with both rakeback and rev share).
bb1webs;143050 wrote:Dom is right. Any kickback should be provided by the poker rooms… not by advertisers.If I agree with a pokerroom to get a 10% revenue share and give the rest to the players then who is paying? Is it me paying because my price went down? No, it is still the pokerroom!
I dont pay any players anything!
Regards,
MikeDan I don’t know where you’ve been but we as a collective have fought many battles to protect our way of life (likely you have benefited from some of these and perhaps were unaware) and it wouldn’t have been accomplished if we all were not able to come to some kind of understanding to work together (Dom, KW, Prof, Integrity, .. amongst many others leading the way). And undercutting other affs is not working together.
while I believe the programs you are working with are to blame for not offering the same deal to all their affs …. and do not blame you for taking your best bet …. you also must understand my arguement.
I hope for your sake with so much to lose …. you don’t someday encounter someone else who comes along offering a bit more kickback and steals your players.
and if you’d read my posts entirely you’d have seen where i said this very thing. that any rakebacks should be done by the poker rooms and not by affs. But it should be a level playing field.
At some point if we all keep accepting less and less …. we end up cutting each other’s throats and doing all the work for programs for very much less than we could have earned.
IF you can’t see the logic in such then I doubt anything i can say from this point will ever make you. And as I said, … i hope you don’t ever have to learn my point the hard way.
Hey bb1webs, morning.
You say
bb1webs;143050 wrote:If a poker room chooses to allow rakeback ….. make it possible for us all.Good point….
But they DO make it possible for all!
If you wanted to give rakeback today you can.In fact as Mike (DanTheMan) says, in 95% of the cases, you don’t have to do anything as the rooms are doing it all themselves and rakeback affiliates are simply working as affiliates promoting a rakeback (bonus/comps/rewards/VIP, call it what you like) program on behalf of a room
It already IS a level playing field and has been for some time. There are two types of player, those who know about rakeback and those who don’t. The latter FAR outnumber the former and there is nothing to stop you promoting to both
I am not sure what is stopping you offering rakeback today?
Kind regards
RTR
I have no problems with a level playing field.
its cut-throat rakebackers i have a problem with. for obvious reason.
I think there is a communication problem on this matter and I take myself as guilty as the next.
My problem is with those that offer a “kickback” to players which comes out of their pocket (the affs) or that have been allowed a special deal from poker rooms when its not available to other/all affs.
so I think we’re on the same trail. Just naming it different.
and good morning to you too.
that said RTR, you still have not addressed this quote:
Seriously, if only for your own health
RTR
what did you mean by that?
