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gregpowell
I really don’t care if Karim is a nice guy. That’s not relevant!
Quote:attracting new poker players is difficult, and if a poker room allows you to re-acquire players then you’re going to do it. Honestly, I know it’s a massive kick in the ass when an affiliate takes a player from you, but rooms have done a lot to prevent this from happening further and I know RTR wasn’t the first site to try this strategy.This is really a lame argument! Is blackhat and SPAM also okay, as long as it’s difficult to attract new poker players?
I don’t think it’s difficult to attract new poker players. But it’s difficult to keep them, because of webmasters like karim and poker rooms that dosen’t honor life time revenue share contracts.
Rakeback sucks because it’s the affiliates who pays the party. This also happens in the real world when companies import poor workers from Africa or Eastern Europe, to work for a 1/3 salary. But in the real world we have unions to fight this. In the poker industry it seems like people don’t care.
Well, except a few. But I can promise you that I won’t take part in this sick concept. I have already removed a lot of poker rooms from my site, and more will follow. If only enough affiliates did it, we could fight it!!!
Rakeback = theft of other people’s players.
Simple as that.
I recruit them, I train them, and when they start being valuable, you steal them.
nuf said.
The point that Casinolisten made about raketherake whining about the theft of players was valid. It really does strike me as utterly hypocritical. He didn’t seem to be too keen to discuss this further once confronted with the instructions of player theft from his very own site.
Rakeback affiliates make a living by acquiring large player bases which provide good residual income since the opportunities for shaving are less. It’s a volume business. The better you are at stealing the more successful you will be as a rakeback affiliate.
i am mostly a poker affiliate and i dont like rakeback but……….
this has nothing to do with “RakeTheRake” – its the poker rooms that are letting rakeback sites steal our players. They are the ones setting the rules, affiliates like RakeTheRake are just following those rules.
Point the finger at the poker rooms allowing rakeback not the affiliates.
darko123
Your right, the poker rooms have a big responsibility! But how can you blame them?
Normal affiliates get 20%-40% revenue share. Suddenly a new affiliate signup and give his commission back to the player, he only keeps 5-10% for himself. Now the poker room has an affiliate who “sends” big numbers of players AND PAY OUT BONUSES FOR THE POKER ROOM!
WOW
Isn’t that amazing? Maybe he steals some players from other affiliates (on the same poker room), but they don’t care. This guy really makes them a lot of money. The poker room almost makes the same as before (percentage wise). The affiliate makes 5%-10% maybe 15% if he’s really bad. AND the players are HAPPY…
AND
The normal affiliates do not pull together, and before we know it, rake back and 5% commission is standard business. Very sad!
@Casinolisten 142317 wrote:
darko123
Your right, the poker rooms have a big responsibility! But how can you blame them?
Normal affiliates get 20%-40% revenue share. Suddenly a new affiliate signup and give his commission back to the player, he only keeps 5-10% for himself. Now the poker room has an affiliate who “sends” big numbers of players AND PAY OUT BONUSES FOR THE POKER ROOM!
WOW
Isn’t that amazing? Maybe he steals some players from other affiliates (on the same poker room), but they don’t care. This guy really makes them a lot of money. The poker room almost makes the same as before (percentage wise). The affiliate makes 5%-10% maybe 15% if he’s really bad. AND the players are HAPPY…
AND
The normal affiliates do not pull together, and before we know it, rake back and 5% commission is standard business. Very sad!
Just playing devils advocate here for a min…..
What you are describing is a free market isnt it ? And that how business works.
Also normal affiliates have the choice to decide to not promote rooms that allow rakeback or if you really want to promote that room, do it on cpa only. By doing this poker rooms will hopefully will see sense and make them think twice about offering rakeback.
Personally i really think the buck stops at the poker room.
Pokerstars will never have rakeback and partypoker does not allow it now and bodog stopped it last year – so hopefully the trend will continue (but smaller sites will always offer rakeback i think)
@darko123 142319 wrote:
Just playing devils advocate here for a min…..
What you are describing is a free market isnt it ? And that how business works.
No, that’s not a free market!
We are promised life time revenue share when we signup as affiliates. If another affiliate can refer the same player I referred one month ago, it’s not a free market. That’s fraud and/or theft.
Many programs have their own casino portals. What if they make a rakeback site? Is it still a free market?
BTW we don’t have a free market now. The poker rooms and the poker networks have made “rakeback rules”. You can’t give more than 30% etc.
These rules was made because the rakeback affiliates cried about competition and because of cannibalism on the networks. :roflmao:
Poker rooms don’t like to do CPA anymore either.
It’s too risky for them, they buy the player and then the same happens to them that happens to rev share poker affs – rakebackers come along and steal the players and send them to another room.
I fought this hard when poker was fairly new, but everyone was too greedy to listen.
Now the poker system is so screwy it’s not funny anymore.
I am certainly not investing my efforts in poker.
@Dominique 142322 wrote:
Now the poker system is so screwy it’s not funny anymore.
Really not much has changed in the past three years in the industry besides some major sites like Party and Pokeroom not accepting US players. To be noted those two brands never allowed rakeback to begin with.
Did you know we have a section on PAP dedicated to rakeback? I’ll moderate it and make sure we have some input from the key affiliates in that field.
@gregpowell 142325 wrote:
Really not much has changed in the past three years in the industry besides some major sites like Party and Pokeroom not accepting US players. To be noted those two brands never allowed rakeback to begin with.
gregpowell, this is not true!
3 years ago rakeback wasn’t main stream. It was only “high rollers” who asked about it. Today everyone asks for it, even players who are better of with a $200 reload bonus.
3 years ago the affiliates had to pay rakeback through NETeller. Today the poker rooms do it.
Poker started as a very good business, but today the industry is destroyed by this “amazing concept”. Only PartyPoker and a few others won’t allow it.
I know the big rakeback affiliates make money, but they don’t bring new players to this industry. It’s pure cannibalism.
@gregpowell 142325 wrote:
Did you know we have a section on PAP dedicated to rakeback? I’ll moderate it and make sure we have some input from the key affiliates in that field.
Sorry but why do you think I want input from rakeback affiliates? Please look at their sites. They have no content. They only have instructions that tell you how to delete an account and make a new one.
Actually Party used to allow rakeback. It was a big bruhaha when they came out publicly against it, and I’ll never forget the rakeback session I moderated in Amsterdam where Party spoke out against Rakeback.
I forget who it was, but he said to the rakeback folks:
” what did you ever do for the industry? Did you ever recruit one new player to play online?”
And that is it in a nutshell. If it wasn’t for the revshare affs the rakeback folks don’t have any players to work with.
Rev share people attract them and train them on info sites and get them going. Only after that do the rakeback folks swoop down and grab them, telling them how to close their account that they have under the aff who recruited and trained them and open another – FRAUDULENTLY!
Supposedly the Poker programs don’t let that happen and protect their affiliates – haha, they just look the other way.
Rakeback is a parasite. I don’t know why the poker rooms don’t just offer rakeback as a bonus program and leave affiliates out of it.
@Dominique 142329 wrote:
Actually Party used to allow rakeback. It was a big bruhaha when they came out publicly against it, and I’ll never forget the rakeback session I moderated in Amsterdam where Party spoke out against Rakeback.
I forget who it was, but he said to the rakeback folks:
” what did you ever do for the industry? Did you ever recruit one new player to play online?”
I remember this and I’m pretty sure it was RakeTheRake VS. PartyPoker. The answer was “I referred my mom”. Not even funny.
@Dominique 142329 wrote:
Rakeback is a parasite. I don’t know why the poker rooms don’t just offer rakeback as a bonus program and leave affiliates out of it.
Because it’s better if the affiliates pays it out of their commissions, and the poker rooms can keep their share..
Guys excuse me, but since it’s a thread about rake back and PartyPoker.com, I couldn’t stop myself.
Few things to clarify from my experience and knowledge
– Party never supported rake back of any sort. When I was at Party, we tried to combat it with sincerity.
– Karim can’t be held responsible because there are 1000’s of affiliates like him who promote rake back and some of them are sponsored and encouraged by the most favorite affiliate programs in the industry.
– Poker rooms still do CPA, about $500-800 for Non US players and about $300 for US players, for good volumes
– It’s the operators who have to curb it; if they want cannibalization would reduce by 99%
– It’s the onus on the operators to take good care of the high rollers and every sensible operator does this
– Rake back affiliates don’t send volume of players to any poker rooms; they have a limited number of players. I haven’t seen any rake back affiliate who can send more than 500 depositing players to any particular poker room every month. For bigger rooms, this is considered the second or third category of affiliates. Therefore they are not important for big companies, coz the acquisition team and the retention team are different and they have their own targets.
– Only small players in the industry allow rake back, coz they are happy with good players who can generate rake and not volume. These are the real villains in our case here.
– Affiliates work within rules specified by the industry and they are amongst the smartest people I have seen around. I have seen young kids making more than 100K a month from each program.So it’s either the poker rooms or the affiliates who have to become responsible to curb this menace.
For poker rooms, I can understand, they want profits, but if affiliates make it a point not to promote any poker room which encourages rake back, I think the situation would be different from what it is now. This idea has been supported by Lou, Dom and most of the big affiliates we have at CAP, and if this is acknowledged by all the members, we will have lesser issues with the said topic.
Just my thoughts,
Well said.
Party was being used by rake back affiliates without their consent, and did take a while to take a stand, but that’s besides the point.
Personally, I don’t bother monetizing my poker traffic, even though I have a large strategy section and a good one, and a busy poker forum. It’s just not worth the touble to build a player base, and building it to a point where I can get decent CPA is too time consuming.
I am much better off concentrating on casino and bingo, even skill games.
