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Can someone point me to a thread discussing how players taking advantage of bonuses offered by a casino are fraudelent. This is the one piece through this thread that doesn’t sit right with me. If a site offers free money or a free hour, or any kind of bonus, are we are not supposed to advertise this and advertise it heavily so that players sign up and take advantage? Are we not supposed to give our advice to the player on how to take advantage of this bonus so that in the end they can beat the wagering requirements and actually cash out winnings?
If these types of bonuses bring in highly fraudelent players, and advertisers can have their account shut down for exploiting these bonuses, than why are the casinos offering them? And by exploiting, I mean by teaching the player about the T&C’s and the wagering requirements and how to outlast them, not by cheating, but by following the rules layed out by the casino.
Also, there should be no debate about the email thing. An affiliate manager does not need to inform us when they go out of town, but they sure as heck better not shut my account down while they were gone, without informing me at sometime. And if an affiliate manager goes out of town for whatever reason, there should be someone in the office to answer questions or emergency emails. As Stupid said, this is a business and when something happens to my business I want answers and I want answers fast.
Hi all (CGW)
I disagree on some points. ……. but doesn’t mean I don’t respect you. We …. as a forum ….. should be allowed to disagree… is that fair?
okay
are we are not supposed to advertise this and advertise it heavily so that players sign up and take advantage? Are we not supposed to give our advice to the player on how to take advantage of this bonus so that in the end they can beat the wagering requirements and actually cash out winnings?
I can only speak of my own experience. but my experience is that … you will always get what you ask for on the net.
you ask for bonus chasers…. that’s what you’ll get and you WILL ….. or should expect trouble…. These people are seemingly not satisfied ….. and I agree with you …. that the casino bring it on themselves…. I already mentioned that and hope you appreciate my POV.
okay that said……
Also, there should be no debate about the email thing.
I think the thing you miss is that by publishing an aff manager’s email …. you make their addy subject to harvesters. surely you …. as many established sites understand …. it creates such a wave of spam that its nearly impossible to wade thru the shit to find the few bits of gold there…. is that fair?
I think so.
Please know I do not and don’t want to challenge such a respected aff. I merely point out the obvious. Because I am going thru this myself right now … and I’m no where near the exposure an aff program endures.
I’m getting over 1k a day of spam. it rediculous. Sadly in the end ….. its none of our faults …… it is a matter of ….. why can’t the damn ISP’s simply make a point that where ever an email is sent from ….. that their TRUE origin is made clear in the “from” column?
I think that is a major complaint … a righteous question …. from anybody’s POV.
fair so far?
I am assuming……. okay… from there
As Stupid said, this is a business and when something happens to my business I want answers and I want answers fast as myself and my entire staff of workers and writers depend on it for income.
you are both right.
But that said….. We ….as mentioned about email spam in the 1st place … must deal with life as it is ….. not as it should be.
truth as I know it … is that …… I have to wait on replies from even the most reputable of places.
is that out of line? I suspect not…… fair?
that …. or I’m just too small to matter because I DO wait ….. from every place.
Yes…..I’d run my biz differently. In fact i do. Seldom do I not answer emails …. (from legits) ….. almost within 24 hours or less.
Sadly…. I cannot get them immediate satisfaction because I must wait on aff managers to reply to my email.
But I feel fortuneate…… lucky even … to be able to contact someone over the regular player’s head ……. and in the end … find satisfaction for the player who signed up thru my sites.
No….. its not a perfect world. But that also is what makes us as portal owners ……. worth our salt.
I hope I have been both afforable … but yet making my point because I do Respect you … and do want to. …….. as always ……..speak the truth as I see it ….. and despite fact in the case …. am Pro-RA ….. not be biased.
I hope my position is appreciated.
Thank you for your time and consideration
S.
@Stupid 147050 wrote:
But I have to disagree with Bonusgeek big time.
Frankly I don’t work with too many programs that can’t find the time to give me a response in a timely manner. As a matter of fact the ones I have given the best exposure are all on msn chat available at any time. But there are in fact several programs that leave a lot to be desired regarding responding to emails. If your unaware of all the posts made in the past year both here and at paw then you just happened to miss them. I was more less just making a point that he got a response in two days after he inquired which is actually pretty good by some standards.
I agree this is an interesting thread. I definitely feel every affiliate should always be notified immediately when their account is closed. But at the same time for the genuine fraudsters, I say piss on them. If I am an affiliate manager I will get around to those thieves when I am damn good and ready. They don’t deserve the same curtosey as hard working honest affiliates when they are out to do nothing but steal and manipulate the system. Again, I am talking about the genuine fraudsters who are stealing from the programs and I am not saying this person is one of them. I have no idea what transpired.
And Stupid, I never justified that it was ok to find out 8 days after the fact that my affiliate account was locked and I am still sending free traffic. I even agreed it was a good idea to send out a generic email letting an affiliate know. My point was if I am an affiliate manager and I have a to do list, the thieves go to the end of that list, period.
Imagine you have a forum and are running some kind bonus-promo drawing for your top 100 poker players under you. Now 2 out of the 100 you know are doing something underhanded, maybe registering for the bonus draw 5 times under the same ip or something. Whatever underhanded technique they are using doesn’t make a difference, but now you have questions about the promo from each of your 100 players. Are you going to address the thief first or handle your genuine players first. It may be a bad example, but you should get my point. Thats all I was saying and was not justifying that its acceptable to leave an affiliate hanging when their account gets closed, especially in light of how easy it is not to leave them hanging by sending out a generic email.
In summary, I don’t know what constitutes fraud by an affiliate program because I don’t mess with any of that garbage. But if an affiliate has been pegged to be cheating the system, I say piss on them, I will get to those thieves when I get done dealing with my honest affiliates. Perhaps putting out fires was the wrong language to use, to do list, fires, call it what you want but the thieves go to the end if I am an affiliate manager and I expect you and most other affiliates would do the same.
Nicely put BG.
can’t add to it.
but wish for those who question… to consider BG’s post. Fact by Air’s own admission is …. that 20 signups/players ….. whatever were sent …. and all 20 were seen as fraud.
any of us …. truly…. who have any time in the biz …. know CR/RA ….. is not known for ignoring quality affs….. nor for making these assumptions without true cause.
I don’t say this to stick up for RA….. hell under these circumstances…..I’d probably even stand up for Cpays…. much as I’d hate it.
Look at history…. look at the amount of posts Air has made …. to me ….. its not a hard jump from step one to the end. Am I that far off?
I would like to take this opportunity given to me by CGW and put in my 2 cents on the whole fraud issue:
If these types of bonuses bring in highly fraudulent players, and advertisers can have their account shut down for exploiting these bonuses, than why are the casinos offering them? And by exploiting, I mean by teaching the player about the T&C’s and the wagering requirements and how to outlast them, not by cheating, but by following the rules layed out by the casino.
My opinion is that there is no such thing as “fraudulent player”. This term was recently made up by the cookie-cutter online casinos, who had nothing more to offer to the potential players, but a different casino name. Let’s face it, there is no noticeable difference from casino A to casino B if they use the same platform – same game, same jackpot, the only difference – the bonus. In order to attract players, the mediocre online casinos ante up the bonus to the point where they put their own foot in their own mouth.
Something had to be done and they came out with the “fraudulent player” concept, which is nothing more than a player taking advantage of the bonus-gone-wild marketing of online casinos ran by idiots without any brain for marketing and branding. Fraudulent player is a player who wins after following the exact T&C posted by the casino. You can also fund them under “bonus whores” and “bonus abusers” – terms also made up by the casinos in order to demean smart and winning players.
There is no such animal as fraudulent player. A player who commits fraud is the one who plays with stolen funds or opens multiple accounts – all of those happen not so often and hardly affect anyone’s bottom line in a long run, just extra hustle. Everything else is casinos ripping off players and affiliates.
The bonus abusers, turns out, are the casinos themselves. A good way to spot a bonus-whore-casino is as follows: open their T&C and if the first thing you read deals with “fraudulent players” – just close the page and move on, for your own sake.
Hi BB1… and everyone else,
Nice to talk to you (BB1) personally after reading so many of your posts. I normally do not write in discussions such as these, but for some reason this thread really got to me…
Let me first get this straight… I absolutely DO NOT agree with posting an actual email address, I get that completely.
However, what I strongly disagree with is that we must accept this industry as it is and deal with things being the way things are. That is why the industry went down to the US law in the first place. We don’t have a union to protect us, so the only things that can protect us is our vigilance as the casino affiliate community on keeping these programs honest and doing the right things.
I absolutely think you can not shut down an affiliate for sending players who take advantage of the bonuses that are provided by the casino. And I absolutely think you can not shut down an affiliate without notifying them at some point. Granted, a program has every right to do these things, but that is not a reputable program.
Also, many respected members here have said they get emails weeks later from reputable programs so they let it go, well, this to me means it is NOT a reputable program.
These companies are making millions and milliions of dollars and most are shaving their stats and incompetently dealing with their promoters and we just accept it becuase that is the state of the industry. No way!
I absolutely think you can not shut down an affiliate for sending players who take advantage of the bonuses that are provided by the casino. And I absolutely think you can not shut down an affiliate without notifying them at some point. Granted, a program has every right to do these things, but that is not a reputable program.
I think I am mis-understood. I fully agree with what you’ve said.
so we got that straight.. fair ?
okay.
here is where I disagree
Also, many respected members here have said they get emails weeks later from reputable programs so they let it go, well, this to me means it is NOT a reputable program.
These companies are making millions and milliions of dollars and most are shaving their stats and incompetently dealing with their promoters and we just accept it becuase that is the state of the industry. No way!
well I wish it was like you say…. but just because I say it won’t rain or flood…. doesn’t make it so.
is that a fair comparison? Trust me …. none of us as affs are happy about some tactics of aff programs…. but we pick and choose the better of the lot.
are any of all perfect or what we’d expect or want? seldom.
And i am….. if of most … the pickiest .. look at my sites… you’ll see.
I list so very few programs its a wonder I’m still in biz.
and I think after looking …… you’ll have to agree. I’ve almost pushed myself out of the biz by being so picky.
*Perhaps you may not agree with my choices. …… but i think you can’t argue I have cut back to less than 5% of the choices out there. This done on MY perspective of the industry aff programs and of course .. how they choose to treat players.
** I do admit I have banners still up of programs I’d probably replace …. if i found that banner… I have literally 1000s of pages …. and am backwards …… and give it up to those more advanced than myself … that I can’t make site-wide changes with a blink of an eye.
point I’m getting at is that i have made adjustments….. have tried to support those i thought I were of quality….. and delete those not ……
_________
I guess it comes down to …… to what do you consider quality programs?
I myself… consider the following and none is negotiable.
1. must treat players right ….. at least after I’ve contacted them … because my job is to ensure this for players.
2. they must address problems I contact them about. – that said.. I understand there is a time difference …. they are busy …. and as much as I’d like them to be Mcdonalds and serve right up……. as far as I’m concerned ….. as long as in (a reasonable time line) … they address and make happy my players…. I have no problem.
3. They gotta pay and not cheat me … I run a business dependant upon that and …… frankly…… no getting around it……. I need to be treated fairly and won’t accept bullshit…. even if they achieve the above two.. because in the end ……. I know if they’ll screw me .. they’ll do it to my readers.
4. When there is a problem ……. they do all and everything to make it right.
I guess I can’t add to that …. not off hand anyway.
Hi all
re-reading…….(once again)
Contact time in ordinary customer support questions are little bit different thing. But I agree with Stupid and other Veteran posters that in an occurance where you cannot login to your account normally, you should be contacted immediately by that program about the state of your account. Do you agree with this webs?
yes I do. And once again I apologize for not seeing this and addressing it fully.
I hope you understand Air…… I am on what i consider the fair and just side…… not on any one side in particular.
I think you have many issues that need addressed in order to judge you fairly.
that said…. I also think that you are right …… I believe there should be an automatic notice by any program …. when an account is frozen or closed so that aff can choose to send traffic elsewhere.
That fair?
This thread has gone nuts since I last looked. Geez.
Antoine pointed the following out much earlier in the thread:
1. Did you choose reward affiliates because they pay the wager share model versus the player loss model?
2. Are you getting players to visit the casino, to make the minimum deposit, play the minimum required under the terms and conditions, and then explaining to those players when they should cash out?
3. Are you assuming that even if the player cashes out the exact same amount they deposited that you will be earning money from the wager model?
4. Are your players playing at the casino because they are gamblers or are they trying to defraud the casino?
This is one of many scenarios of attempt to commit fraud. This one doesn’t work for obvious reasons.
There is no way I am going to explain other ways to do it, the ones that actually work. It has hurt mostly players a lot over the years. There used to be no wagering requirements. Now you practically have to be a lawyer to understand some of them, all because the casinos would like to continue offering bonuses to actual players but at the same time want to prevent fraud.
If you think that casinos do not get defrauded by well organized groups onn a regular basis, you are not thinking like a fraudster. And that’s a good thing.
It doesn’t change the facts though, both players and affiliates have suffered through a lot of weird T&Cs, all because of a few groups who manage again and again to defraud casinos and affiliate programs.
I expect aff programs to be available like any other business, nine to five on weekdays. Of course we are scattered all over the globe, so our times and weekends are not matching exactly.
Not sure how many times in the early phases of this thread the need for notification of account closure was mentioned and agreed upon, but it was several times by several people.
I am going to go back now and read this whole shebang to see if anything new was said, glancing at it I saw mostly repetition of the same stuff.
Well, AiruaL, you certainly deserve a reward. Such a response from your first posting at CAP.
I don’t blame you for complaining about a slow response to your account being closed. I would have been a bit miffed myself. However, I would have been even angrier at the reason given as to why my account was closed. Yet the accusation of fraudulent players seems to take second place with you.
If you sent as many people to your site, as you claim, by posting where ever you did, then well done. But if you are going to post a bitch at this forum have the balls to let us view your website. If you are not prepared to do this then I think you are nothing but a fraud and pot stirrer.
:grunt:
Well, good discussion here and there.
First of all: I think kwblue nailed it with his statement about the miscommunication issue here in his post above.
I´ll try to address some points regarding my particular case and want to keep myself out of the general discussion here, because I have said everything I want into these general topics discussed here.
First of all: There is a zero chance that I have “orchestrated” any fraud in my case, because I was getting zero comission at the moment my account closure happened. Also I don´t know any of my players personally either.
Second point: The main thing that pissed me off a bit was this super bad communication I got from this particular affiliate program, and I wanted to highlight this issue in general. Because this kind of miscommunication is just plain bad business practice. Seems like almost everyone here agrees with me.
Thirdly: Of course I was a little (very little) pissed about closing my affiliate account too after 20 first players sent out of hundreds, because I am almost 100% sure that none of my players committed actual real fraud (multiple accounts, playing against general or promotion T&C, cc chargebacks etc.). If they would have, I am sure I´d seen signs of this in other casinos I promote already also.
I am almost 100% sure that AffiliateRewards decided to close my account (and also decided to call it a “fraud”) just because these ~20 very first players of mine (early adopters as they are called) were newbies to online casino gaming and decided to use Yukon Gold´s promotional offer, which they (as a casino group) have decided to offer (not me as an affiliate), particulary targeting newbie players. AffiliateRewards has shown in the past, that they like to call this kind of playing style a fraud (there has been some active threads in casinomeister about this).I even find this scenario a bit funny: 1) some casino decides to run a promotion, which clearly is targeting newbie players 2) then these newbie players come to casino through affiliate links, and when these players decide to accept this offer, which casino offers -> then 3) casino is blaming affiliate about bringing in “fraudalent” players and 4) closes affiliate´s account.
When the actual reason why these players decided to choose particulary this casino as their first or second casino, is that promotion, which casino offers, NOT affiliate. Still all the blame is on an affiliate.
A bit ironic, isn´t it?But you guys can continue about this. I have lots of support stuff to do with my players now and I have plenty of other affiliate programs to promote. GL everyone!
Again, Airual, you come here as an unknown entitiy, make a first post with some amazing statements ( like 2000 visitors in the first 10 days, 20 players in 3 days…) and you accuse standing members of this community of being envious “trolls”. (This is a professional board here and name calling is not permitted, fyi. More of it and I will take action, I don’t see treating you better than the general membership. I let it go because you are new and no one was offended because no one identified with it)
Any experienced aff program would be excited and happy by the above numbers (and CR is certainly one of the pillars of the industry) and would seek you out to ensure a profitable future.
Instead, they close your account.
You refuse to tell anything about yourself – site, nationality, source of players, ID at Meister’s…., not a shred of evidence or identity.
I am sorry, this is too much of a leap of blind faith for me.
I have known CR for many years, and I know absolutely nothing about you.
None of this makes any sense.
The only actual point made is that at least an auto notice should be sent out if an account is closed. Not sure how many aff programs actually do this if any, that’s a good point anyways..
Ok so I’ve spent the last half hour or so reading this thread and I think some affiliates have missed the point of my email that Air so kindly posted for everyone..
The account was closed because of the amount of fraudulent players sent.
I did not say they played fraudulently. I said they were fraudulent players. Can we please make that clear?
So let’s get all the bonus abuse and bonus whoring comments out of here. They don’t apply, have nothing to do with why this account was closed.
The players committed fraud. End of story.
Air – if you had emailed me after my initial email here telling you to address any further concerns via email, I would have been happy to tell you a few details of the fraud committed..
Regarding communication means – I’m afraid our company believes in keeping sensitive data sacred. So no, I don’t have a blackberry for answering emails while out of the office, nor do I have a “take-home” work computer. I am in here before the sun comes up and leave most days after it goes down, AND i drive 2 hours to get here every day. I guess perhaps I should create a bed under my desk and live here.
Besides the point, the reason I was on leave did not permit me to be able to respond to anything anyway.
There are 2 points of contact for our affiliate program. One is me, the other is Yaniv. You didn’t email Yaniv. He has a blackberry (he is the aff manager afterall). If you did, you would have received an email earlier. My apologies.
I can’t remember who wrote about this, may have been Stupid (apologies if I’m wrong), but saying what affiliate managers do and don’t do in their job is ridiculous. For your information, we both have programming skills (amongst others) and do take care of the back end, front end, and everything that goes with the aff program – we don’t get any help from the IT guys in daily running of the program unless there is an issue we can’t sort out ourselves. I make all the tools myself. I edit the website. I organise payments.
So, putting all of that together, with communication and considering that under regular circumstances (not on personal leave) I would have replied to an email as soon as I received it, if not first thing the next morning or first thing on return after the weekend, I think I’m doing a pretty darn good job and I suspect that my nomination for Best Affiliate Manager (even though i’m an affiliate coordinator) is a true indication of that.
I respond to each email as they come in. So first in first out. I responded as soon as I read Air’s email. Yes, there were a few days in between. Unfortunately as I have already said, you did not email Yaniv, and I was away on personal leave.
Re autoresponder – the reason we don’t send an automated email telling you why your account was closed is because there could be a few reasons why your account has been closed. So we would prefer to personalise the email here..
In saying that, I will try to impliment a generic automated email saying that your account has been closed and to contact support for more info.
Air – not sure why you wont post your website (if its the one on file).
For everyone elses information, the website is in Finnish.I don’t want this thread to turn into a shit fight, but it looks like its going that way. If theres no new information being posted I think this thread would be better closed.
I think any further correspondance between Air and myself (if needed), considering the nature of the issue, should be conducted via email. I won’t be posting any details of the fraud here and I believe a resolution on the automated email front has been concluded.
Cheers
I have now PM´d Renee about many things mentioned/discussed/not discussed here and I really hope that after reading and responding me she can come back to this thread very last time to make final post into this thread with a good mood. I have really tried now everything on my behalf to address the last bits on this in the best possible way.
well,
as a conclusion i think there are several things that can be said:
1. programs should have some kinda autoreply when your account gets banned (best of luck in that one! it just aint going to happen. for reason that they (aff. progs) dont like fraudulent players/accounts and they are not going to apologize to fraud or whatever else you might call it)
2. come on CAP and claim shit without proof will get people to laugh at you
3. Renee is one single crazy woman from Sidney who will kick your ass since she comes from a footballing blood
4. This topic is waaaay closed since no proof nor evidence is present!
i guess that’s that…unless someone has something significant to say and that doesnt include chewing on iffy situations, this shit is done…
got any questions? speak to renee privately.:hattip:
