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Stupid, with all respect, if every aff manager of every program I have signed up for for any length of time would send me reports about their personal whereabouts I would consider it unbearable spam. You got to be reasonable, I don’t expect my mail to be clogged with such mails.
If I have established a relationship with a program after working with them for some time, they do tend to let me know when they will be gone, and that is good and useful.
Also, not being seen doesn’t relate to being professional imo. I don’t go to conferences to make friends, I go there to cement business relationships and meet managers and operators face to face. I personally like to know just who it is I am dealing with and base decisions on that. It works for me, you might try it sometime.
Rogue affiliates hurt US as much as they do the casinos, T&Cs for affiliates and players get tighter and tighter to prevent fraud all the time. It is in OUR interest to keep the industry as clean as we can.
So, asking direct questions when a fraud case is presented is in no way anti-affiliate. We need to keep our work environment honest if we expect to be treated the same way in return. Sleeze breeds sleeze.
So the way I approach Airual’s issue is by investigating as much of the circumstance as I can. I have no doubt the players were fraudulent, so the question remains how a novice aff gets hit with such a big number of fraudulent players within 10 days. There is defintitely something wrong there. If he is going to continue and end up running a profitable business, that is the point he needs to focus on.
Re. notification of account closure, I already addressed that.
I don’t blame them at all for closing the account. I bet 99 out of 100 times a program closes an affiliate account due to fraud its legitimate. I am not saying that AiruaL orchestrated this fraud, but the end result is still the same — nothing but problems and fires to put out from this affiliate. And frankly if I am an affiliate manager and I have 40 emails full of fires to put out, the new affiliate that has already shown signs of probably being more trouble than they are worth goes to the end of the list. Thats just the reality of it whether some think thats fair or not. I think AiruaL will learn to exercise a bit more patience when it comes to getting a response. Hell, there are plenty of affiliates that send tons of legitimate business and we are lucky to get a response from certain programs in 5 days let alone the 2 it took for him to get a response to his inquiry. I made the same mistake too when I was a new gambling affiliate, but now I understand the facts of life in this business and usually I give a problem time to work itself out before jumping the gun
That being said I think AiruaL made an excellent suggestion in implementing a generic email when accounts are closed. I think its a fair request and would solve this little problem.
What exactly constitutes ‘fraudulent play’ and how can affiliates filter out such players before sending them to casinos?
Fortune palace, Antoine outlined one scanario in this thread:
A couple of questions:
1. Did you choose reward affiliates because they pay the wager share model versus the player loss model?
2. Are you getting players to visit the casino, to make the minimum deposit, play the minimum required under the terms and conditions, and then explaining to those players when they should cash out?
3. Are you assuming that even if the player cashes out the exact same amount they deposited that you will be earning money from the wager model?
4. Are your players playing at the casino because they are gamblers or are they trying to defraud the casino?
I think I all ready know the answers.
There are many other ways to defraud casinos, but as Renee mentioned, publicising these only leads to lots of people trying them out, so that’s not a smart thing to do.
There is nothing really you can do to prevent fraudsters signing up through your link, and for a normal site this doesn’t become a recurrent problem. Everyone ends up with the occasional closed player account.
But when the affiliate actively encourages the players to defraud the casinos, we have a whole other picture.
20 players out of 20 comitting fraud is not normal by any stretch of the imagination.
It may be an unhappy way of having presented the promo and not this aff’s intention, it could be the place where the players where recruited, and it may be that such things are prevalent at the time in the country where the aff advertised.
There is no telling without further information.
Dominique;147047 wrote:20 players out of 20 comitting fraud is not normal by any stretch of the imagination.Well, I have to comment here on this, because I am pretty sure that 20 out of 20 players have not committed a fraud. I think so because I see zero fraud costs deducted in my all other stats at the moment. It would be pretty interesting situation that these users would have tried to defraud this casino only, if that was the case. This is of course if you define fraud like Casinomeister defines fraud, which includes: credit card chargebacks, other credit card frauds (using stolen cc etc.), fake ID´s, same user creating multiple accounts, player playing against the general casino T&C, player playing against casino promotion T&C (excluded games, wrong currency…)/not fulfilling WR of possible promotions. I have strong and bold warning about these things in my guide to casino beginners, which I insist everyone to read first before signing-up to any casino. That´s because I know that all those things are fraud and everyone gets caught and I don´t tolerate players like that either.
Actually I´d guess that there is maximum of about 1 in those ~20 first players who have committed any of those above things and this is how fraud is determined at casinomeister (which I thought was standard definition in this industry?).
Nothing more to add – I just don´t want to see my players to be called fraudsters, if there is none evidence to show about any of those things mentioned above from casino´s side. This far we haven´t seen any of this evidence. So please ladies and gentlemen, let´s not call my possible players fraudster without any shown evidence, thank you.
Air…
first of all… (and i very much respect Bryan) …. IMHO …. his threads are saturated with bonus chasers etc.
so if that is where you’re getting traffic …..(and not saying so) …. you get what you seek.
further…..above is true with any approach to gaining traffic. You use words like “free” …. “bonus”… you’ll get this type of traffic.
Dom makes an excellent point. You say well….. I don’t believe these are all fraud players. But truth is …..you cannot know this unless you personally set them up to visit and play…. which in such case…. basically makes them fraud though had they met all requirements …would statistically make them not fraud.
I hope you follow me on this. Because i do tests all the time but encourage my visitors (paid by me) … to never accept bonuses. Of course…. that always doesn’t work. I know that.
emails:
publishing emails is a no-no. I make mine avialable thru images so harvesters cannot get them. I still get over 1000 spam a day.
that my friend…. is why you don’t publish emails. imagine the chance of legit affs contacting aff managers when they have to go thru …. very likely 10 times the crap I wade thru every day. its just asking too much.
__________
end of the day….. the fact is …… you don’t provide a website addy so any of us can make clear judgement. I hope that is understood and I understand reluctance to do so … but at some point ….. you must make these decisions….
you want help? you gotta provide ALL the facts….. not just what works for you.
I hope you appreciate the fact that nobody had attacked you here….. we merely defend a program that has a proven quality record of their biz approach.
on the other hand….. you are not providing complete info so any of us can make an educated guess or suggestion over the matter.
that makes you suspect …… and rightly so.
but that said…… as i mentioned…… nobody has come out and attacked you…. they merely are making statements which any of us proven over time affs …. have reason to ask these questions.
Very interesting thread, indeed. I am not going to go into the fraud, we have discussed this 1,000s of times in the past and so far the definition is left to the casinos – whatever they decide is fraud.
But I have to disagree with Bonusgeek big time. The job of the affiliate manager is 100% communication. There is nothing else to aff manager than communicating with the affiliates assigned to them. The affiliate manager doesn’t take care of the back end, front end, payment processing, customer service, etc. Their job requires assisting their affiliates and if you do this with 8 days delay – you are not doing your job.
Hell, there are plenty of affiliates that send tons of legitimate business and we are lucky to get a response from certain programs in 5 days let alone the 2 it took for him to get a response to his inquiry.
You are lowering your standards, Bonusgeek. With exception of one program, the rest of my advertisers (US and foreign) will respond within 24 hours, weekday or weekend. Many of them send out a mass email informing their affiliates that they’ll be out of the office, along with further instructions, I am sure there are plenty of affiliates here getting those emails as well.
And frankly if I am an affiliate manager and I have 40 emails full of fires to put out…
If you had 40 emails full of fire every day, either you are doing an awful job or your affiliate program sux.
I find it hard to understand how someone could justify 8 days delay in correspondence, when an account is closed, whatever the reason for the account to be closed. Judging from the email snipped posted earlier, it took less than a minute to write the responce.Hi again all,
all due respect towards all involved…. it really comes down to a “he said…. she said”‘……. situation.
None of us know other …… other than the fact Renee admitted it was 2 days ….. that there was an 8 day difference in response.
is that fair ….. or am I missing something?
now that said… we still have any of us yet to see the website in question … which …. not accusing ….. just saying possibly …. may be one of those websites where they give info on how best to get around the terms of a casino for free… no deposit bonuses.
Personally… as you all know .. I am totally against the above type of bonuses because frankly they create just such problems and in the end … were they not there …. people who ever intended to deposit would do so … and those not .. would not.
is that fair?
I very much respect Stupid and that person’s posts. (insert bowing smilie here)
so that said….. I think avoiding the fraud angle is not a fair approach to the whole matter…. but I do respect your angle.
that said ….. it is a whole angle. IF there was a response in 2 days …… I think that a fair amount of time.
What I would like to say in defense of all aff programs … and i say this sadly …. is many do not recognize us smaller (and I am) affs in the timely manner that I know for certain many bigger aff programs get.
Now that said… I cannot accuse RA of such tactics. Perhaps I’m lucky. And i admit I’ve been pro-RA for a long time. So I give it up perhaps that’s the reason ….
but i do wait on responses….. but I DO get them. I have because of partnerships….. several acounts and as you most know …. they cannot be created without separate email accounts. So even if RA knows who I am on one account .. I assure you ….. they do not always know who I am on all of them. Because some are created thru my partners and not myself. There is no way they could know i am associated.
Yet we still get responses.
I submit this to you……. not on any side …. just as food for thought and as I have always tried to be ….. calling them as i see them.
bb1webs;147049 wrote:you cannot know this unless you personally set them up to visit and playOf course I can not know this, but I think it is highly unlikely because I see zero of those things in any other stats of mine. I have not personally set anyone to play and I never use my own links for my personal play of course.
The exact time gap was 5 days after the moment I first saw that I am not able to login to my affiliate account, to the moment I received response to my email when I asked about the login problem of my affiliate account. But I am afraid that this time gap would have been much longer if I personally would have not contacted them – Actually I am afraid that they would have never contacted me. And this I consider bad business practice like Stupid does also.
I understand that this site is not Casinomeister but CAP, but when the first mentioned is “Player´s guard dog in online gambling” and the latter is “Affiliate´s guard dog in online gambling”, then in my opinion these two sites should co-operate and use same kind of definitions for the word fraud for example. At the moment Casinomeister is much bigger site than CAP, so what I have understood the Casinomeister´s definitions are taken as industry standards. I find he´s definitions good and so do most of the other members there.
But this fraud stuff is now going very off-topic at the moment like Stupid mentioned so I think it is better idea to discuss about those other things in completely another thread and let this thread go to archives, when the point of this thread about communication between casino affiliate programs and it´s affiliates is already addressed(?) (at least agreed) by veteran users and moderators here and I hope casino affiliate programs start to use these better business practices in general in their communication processes in the future.
sorry Air …. but i disagree.
But this is now going very off-topic
is this about fraud players and accounts being closed? or about the time an aff program replies?
further…. if its about time line for reply……
was it 2 days or 8 before you got a reply? to my understanding Renee said she replied right after her weekend. apologize if wrong.
IMHO, like bb1webs mentioned we’ll never know unless we can see how AiruaL is getting his traffic, and what his website is. I find it weird that he’d go through all of this thread without mentioning his website (if he’s got one). 1000 uniques per day in the first 10 days can’t be very targeted.
I can’t find “AiruaL” in Casinomiester or any other casino related.
Knowing Renee and her program, I seriously think they want to make a strong business, and I can’t imagine they would close an account without a valid reason. After all, fraud and abusive SEO techniques give all legit gambling webmasters the stereotype of “bad neighborhood” in the online industry.bb1webs;147054 wrote:…or about the time an aff program replies?This was my main concern and main point of my post here.
bb1webs;147054 wrote:was it 2 days or 8 before you got a reply? to my understanding Renee said she replied right after her weekend. apologize if wrong.I edited this to my earlier post but you guys are so fast
Time gap was 5 days, but as I mentioned, I am afraid that the gap would have been infinity if I didn´t start to solve out login problem myself by writing an email to ask about it. Casino affiliate program in question did not bother to contact me about this radical change with my affiliate account in the first place. After finding this out I thought that I start this thread to ask if this the usual way accredited programs here handle their communication.
I go to sleep now – so you guys have to continue discussion about these communication standards by yourselves from now on. Good night!
So,
1) They decided after first 3(!) first days as an affiliate for me, that I am sending large amount of fraudalent players (I am pretty sure none of my players did use any CC chargebacks or anything fraudalent like that, because most of them are complete newbies to online gaming). Remember, that I had only send ~20 players at this point in total to their casino.
2) They did not even bother to inform me about this, just closed my affiliate account without a notice. I had to ask about this myself! Even though I am new to online casino affiliating, I am pretty experienced in online gaming in general myself and have been for example sub-affiliating to several affiliates more than a year now and never ever have saen this kind of a business practice to not to inform partners about huge changes like this with their accounts.I have read about “Reward Affiliates down the drain” threads in casinomeister before, but I thought that because they are accredited here, they are legit. Well, I hope this is not the way to handle things in industry in general?
Air…..
your first …..
1.
is not about time response ….. it is about fraudulent players.
while i don’t condemn your intentions… because I myself am guilty of not making my claims in proper numbers …… I cannot but help question your entire approach …..not because of your posts….. but because you still hide the very website in question?
I hope you understand that is a very large question about the whole thread. You need to submit ALL the evidence …… not just part ….. before any of us can make educated guesses/suggestions …… to the problem you have given.
further ….. I understand the reluctance ….. but there’s no getting around it …. you are accusing a proven credible program ….. and not providing your entire side of the story.
I hope you can understand my point of view …. and I’m sure is others.
I have read about “Reward Affiliates down the drain” threads in casinomeister before, but I thought that because they are accredited here, they are legit. Well, I hope this is not the way to handle things in industry in general?
further…… I cannot say what goes on at CM’s.
but i can say there has NEVER been a time when i contacted RA …. that a player was not satisfied.
That’s the freakin’ truth and one of the biggest reasons I support them.
Yes maybe there was trouble …. but had the player signed up thru a respected and reputable casino portal …. perhaps their issues would have reached people who would had gone out of their way to satisfy the player in question.
What you must appreciate …… is that nobody has control over what their employees do …. or else you might as well do it yourself.
And ….by the above …. that means you put trust into people whom will go out of their way to not rock the boat ….. not look bad in their employer’s eye.
That my friend. …… is what makes any casino portal so damn important! we are their last hope ….. we are their last recourse. Because we have contacts these players could never dream of having and also ….. if it comes down to it …. represent many players not just one … and the casino that might come into question is forced to make a decision…..
treat our players right …. or lose our sending more.
Think about what i’ve said…. I hope it works out for …….
I say again….. contact Renee……. give her time …. she’s busy . …… but give time and I am certain she will reply. cannot say whether you’ll be happy with it ….. but can say ….. she will reply.
I could have numbered those points other way around webs.
I am not concerned about cutting some affiliate if program decides to, because they reserve a right for this in their T&C (even without a reason if they like).
But bad business practices with bad communication is what I was and am concerned and also disappointed about – because I have not stumbled across with this bad communication before between business transaction sides in any kind of a business before – offline or especially online.
For example: I would freak out if tomorrow I try to login to my neteller account which contains big amount of money at the moment, and it says that I can not login and there is not any message about this in my email from neteller.
