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I’ve been spending a lot of time tracking down and reviewing the bill today. I think there is not nearly as much to worry about as people think. Even the really extreme cases are not necessarily that bad for portal webmasters. Below is one of my posts on the GPWA website that summarizes some of my thoughts.
MichaelCorfman wrote:Hi:I’ve found a copy of the port bill as passed. It can be found at the following URL http://saveonlinegaming.com/hr49543.pdf. The portion of the bill relating to online gambling begins on page 213, and runs from there to the end of the bill on page 244 – so it totals 32 pages in length.
A very important aspect of the bill is that it does nothing to criminalize playing at an online gaming site. It remains completely legal for an individual player to play online in the absence of state laws to the contrary.
There is reference to banking regulations being developed within 270 days of passage on page 231. No timeframe is mandated for implementation and enforcement of those regulations.
In terms of financial transactions, the bill is focused on payments to online gaming sites. There is nothing in the bill to allow interference with payments from online gaming sites to affiliate programs. And, in my personal opinion, the industry has already done a pretty good job of dealing with the player payment methods easily attacked under the bill. And the bankers will fight very hard to prevent regulations from being implemented that require them to do any more work.
There are provisions for disabling links to online gaming sites, but I think those provisions will be easy to circumvent via redirection services. In fact, depending on what happens, the requirements here could actually benefit portal sites with affiliate programs.
Imagine if the actual URLs for gambling sites did not work, but that every affiliate program had a way to identify and direct players to online gaming sites using a database of updated ip addresses that changed frequently enough that ISPs could not block them effectively. Suddenly the easy way to get to online gaming sites would be through portal sites, and those sites cannot be blocked under the provisions of the law.
I sincerely hope that does not happen, but I give it as an example of how a bad outcome for the industry as a whole could actually work to the benefit of portal webmasters.
Personally, I’m now going to sleep very well tonight now that I have had a chance to review the actual provisions of the bill.
Michael
If you want to see the rest of my posts on the topic, they are available on the thread http://www.gpwa.net/forum/showthread.php?t=168130
allfreechips wrote:the providing a html link to a gamling site can be seen as illegal is my issueThere are 1000s of general web directories with a gambling category, not to mention the major search engine directories that have gambling listings like google, yahoo, dmoz, and the list goes on and on… What are they going to do? Tell everyone to delete gambling related links? Even if by some miracle they forced all the U.S sites to remove gambling related links, this leaves 1000s of foreign sites active. Even if they block access to gambling sites from the U.S, what’s to stop surfers from using services such as http://www.proxify.com and http://www.shysurfer.com to find gambling sites anyway. This bill will not last. It’s too ridiculous on sooo many levels.
I think the best way to fight this bill is to really fight the “land of the free” argument and play up the fact that it is ridiculous that the government somehow has the ability in controlling the internet and how we spend our money… We need to try to get a movement started and get thousands of people behind it and this will really play a role in the election this year….
Kdollar, I have to disagree with the whole “land of the free” approach. It’s much more complicated than that. For example, I’m free to take my money and spend it on marijauna, but I would be put in jail for that. Students are free to skip class, but they aren’t going to pass. We are free to promote gambling, but will suffer whatever consequences that the law institutes.
Think of walking into a courtroom and tell the judge “its a free country, I can do what I want” He’d laugh at you and toss your ass in jail for whatever you did wrong (like spend money that YOU earned on drugs that you WANTED to consume).
Quote from “The Simpsons”
Episode “Krusty Gets Busted For Tax Evasion”
Scene “Krusty Being Cross Examined in Court”
Dialogue
Krusty: “Is it a crime to bet on sporting events”
Prosecutor: “Yes, it is”
That scene always made me laugh
I think the point is that most people, including the show’s producers considered that law a joke, and most people still will consider it a joke
my thoughts are diferant at every hr so far lol however on the bank to netteller thing their is a simple way around that. bank to offshore bank to netteller to casino. their is no possable way that they can keep us from sending money from one bank to another. and once the money is outside the usa they have no say in how its spent.My main focus is will they arest people that own forums and gambling related websites?
How many people here know that it’s illegal to even advertise online gaming to an Australian? In 2001, our politicians did the same puppet dance the USA is doing now to protect the interests of certain casino, lottery and horse racing groups who were scared of the online threat and ensure their campaign coffers remained well stocked.
Instead of blocking the transactions, they blocked the marketing and acceptance of bets. No provision was ever made to stop citizens from playing, similar to the bill that passed yesterday. And it should be noted that only games of chance were banned (including poker). It is still perfectly legal to place sports bets online in Australia and the government licenses many online sites to do this.
And what has happened since? Poker & Gaming sites are some of the most trafficked websites in Australia and there is advertising popping up everywhere. At Poker.com we turn away thousands of Aussies that want to play, none of them realising that it would be illegal for us to accept their deposits. (as we are based in Australia, we adhere to the law) Australian players are known throughout the industry as one of the juiciest demographics, and not one government employee is assigned to the policing of the law and no arrests or charges have ever been made.
How does this relate to the USA situation?
It just shows that just because a law is written and passed by crooked politicians, it does not necessarily mean it will have much of an effect or that the clueless population will even know about it!
There is rumblings now that the Aussie government knows how stupid they were to try and ban online gaming. They see that it is as popular as ever and that if they did try to enforce the law it would be challenged. They now want to regulate all gaming to ensure they get a slice of the tax dollars, and I’ve heard the law will be changed within a couple of years.
Frist etc made a big mistake yesterday in circumventing the legislative process, and they will regret it in time. Who knows how far down the track this will be, but history has shown that it just does not work to try and stop people from doing certain things, especially if you do it deceptively. The USA, as Australia is, is still a very young government in the scheme of world governments. Compared to Europe the USA has not been around long and still has a lot to learn when it comes to knowing the best way to protect and serve it’s people’s interests. They need to start learning from their mistakes and start being exposed for their income protectionism. This law as many seem to be these days is all about ensuring the ‘RIGHT‘ people continue to make their money. Don’t even get me started on the religious zealots, but campaigning for their votes is a significant factor too.
We all know this law is flawed, hypocritical and very difficult to enforce. I don’t see it going the distance and affecting our industry long term. People will still find a way to do the things they like doing as happened with alcohol prohibition, and if the law even gets through the whole process, it’s unlikely to last long.
It is a speed bump, but in my opinion will be only that, a speed bump, not a brick wall.
But it sure has opened my eyes to how corrupt the US government is. If this sort of thing goes on in plain view of everyone, imagine all the other dodgy things they get up to! What scares me the most about the situation is not the banning of online gaming, but the power that people like Frist wield and the fact that they do not use that power responsibly.
I’m really confused about the laws here. Gambling is not legal fully in California. Or at least, they can’t open a land based casino here. But they can advertise to us and they can accept our bets and we can play there. Even though we are residents of California where it’s not ok.
What’s the difference between that and internet gambling? Whereas an online casino is like a casino in Nevada. Advertising to us and accepting our bets. Would that mean it’s ok to continue on as long as I’m not in the USA when I connect to the online casino? Is it your residency that determines the law to follow or where you are when you’re doing it?
Very confusing.. all of it.
The scary thing is that this is the first atempt to control the internet for US users. Maybe someday they will block some sites too?
But please explain me something. I live in a different country, with different rules (fortunately, for now).
Here I can set a local tournament, and ask for a signup fee, but no share of anything else. I can create a xbox tournament, or a car race if I want. I just need to ask permission.
Isn’t online poker the same? You aren’t playing against the house. The house only organize the tournament, and receive a fee for their signup. In US is it ilegal to organize paid tournaments, or just online tournaments? Or none of the above?
Do legislators comprehend the difference between casino games and poker?
In US is it ilegal to organize paid tournaments, or just online tournaments? Or none of the above?
Under the Wire act it is illegal to place bets or assist in the placement of bets over interstate(within the usa) or international (to the usa) via a wire.
The Wire act is federal, which means all of the US with some exceptions mainly horse and tribal casinos (which is still unclear). Each state has their own laws regarding gambling of any type. Some states have specific laws prohibiting interent gambling and one of the casinos listed them but I can’t remember which one it was. Some states do not allow gambling of any kind, even land casinos.
for their income protectionism
Republicans protect money, that ‘s what they do, that’s all they do.
US is moving on contrary direction than other places all over the world. I think most countries are regarding online gambling as a fact and trying to find a way of giving it a legal picture. In EU, European Commission is expected to take some steps to stop gambling monopolies across Europe. Gambling monopolies are being under fire because they base their existence on moral issues but as they advertise large on media, and so they incentivise gambling, it will be hard to keep things like they are.
It is not understandble to ban online gambling on moral issues because all these issues apply to offline gambling. If someone wants to illegalise online gambling, then they must illegalise the offline version too.
Another issue that for me is not understandble is the lack of clear law that states that online gambling is ilegal. There is no law saying that. At the same time they approve laws ilegalising bank transfers to online gambling companies. That simply does not make sense for an European.
About Neteller, I really doubt that something can be done. Neteller is a net wallet. Not all transfers are for online gambling. If they block Neteller theyr are blocking all ther business. At most they can get an agreement with Neteller to not allow US residents to use it to gambling. But a major ban seems to me as being against the law.
According to http://www.gambling911.com/internet-gambling-bill-093006.html“Gambling911.com has learned that at least one industry giant plans to release a statement as early as this coming Monday. NETeller, the largest eGaming funds transfer system and company most likely to feel the early affects of this measure, are also scheduled to issue a statement on Monday.
A number of online gambling giants have been in discussions all morning Saturday to discuss ways of confronting this legal measure head on as opposed to rolling over and departing the U.S. market.”
xgambler wrote:For starters, regular bookies and USA based organized crime. Congress has rolled back gambling to the age of underground casinos and bookmaking joints that extend credit and break legs.This is an excellent point! Think about how much sports betting has grown in the last 2 years, especially NFL. NFL betting is a major industry and a big reason the NFL is so popular. Now these gamblers are going to stop?
Another dumb move by the Feds. They spend millions putting major crime families out of business and now they are giving them back their life blood. Years from now we will see the repercussions.
I need some help here. I need to identify where is the exact location where a service like online gambling is really offered.
An online casino operates on a country. Let’s say, they are located in Antigua, their servers with the games are on Antigua. This means that they must respect Antigua rules.
A potential player from the USA deposits money into the casino and plays.
If the service is considered to be offered in Antigua, the country where the casino is located, then no casino executive can be prosecuted to allow a US citizen to play, even though it may be ilegal to accept US citizens bets. That’s because the only rules that must be respected are those of Antigua, where betting is allowed. The service occurs in Antigua, and US rules are out and cannot rule in this case. So, the DOJ can only prosecute US citizens and not the casino execs.
Defining very well where the service occurs is crucial, because if it is outside the US, US rules cannot be applied. US rules would only apply if the service occured in the US, but it really doesn’t. I don’t think an Antiguan casino should care about the origin of a player.
In my view any US rule trying to ilegalise online gambling can only work and be applied to a citizen and not to an outside company. And I really doubt they can go against every citizen that makes an online bet.
I would like to ear some opinions on this issue of service location.
slotplayer wrote:Under the Wire act it is illegal to place bets or assist in the placement of bets over interstate(within the usa) or international (to the usa) via a wire.slotplayer; the wire act covered telephones, not the Internet wireless or otherwise! The republicans attempted to modify the wire act but they failed; at least thus far. The latest bill only address banking institutions and the funding of online gaming accounts via those intruments. After several readings I dont see anything IMO that bans online gambling.
