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Players can read the terms before claiming, just 99% don’t read the terms and it’s usually the bonus hunters that read it. For all promotions you can find out what your wagering status is in the cashier at any time. Another option is to go to livechat and ask. The wagering on the $15 ND isn’t that high to begin with so there are usually no complaints and I don’t think this hurts the acquisition rate.
It’s midnight and there’s lots of comments here. I’m on the road tomorrow driving from Ottawa back to Toronto so I’ll be able to add more comments to this discussion possibly tomorrow night. If everyone wants, I can share some of the data I have collected over the past year, my results with and without the ND bonus and the various T&C changes I have experimented with and my POV on gaming companies using freebies and the pros and cons for them.
Regarding the $15 ND, it has a max cashout of 10x the bonus and can be played on slots (all except progressives), keno and scratchcards. Any play on blackjack and videopoker will void the cashin.
Any play on blackjack and videopoker will void the cashin
well that cuts out a lot of the more serious threats right there. If they’re mainly playing slots then yes every once in a while some affs will take a hard hit from somebody who was never worth the risk but our whole industry plays the odds … and its my thinking that the abusers already are very aware of the T&Cs and will get in under the wire ..
and then I remind they still have the (in this case) $150 to gamble if they so desire … meaning if they’re on a hot streak what’s to keep them from going ahead and cashing out … re-depositing and continuing on? nothing.
so what should probably be considered as a measure would be which way results in more depositing players in the long run?
are we losing more quality players due to frustration (and ultimately the money they would produce) by keeping things as is …. or would we lose more money by opening up the gates and basically all I am saying is take out the trip to the cashier and stop putting the money into their pockets and giving them no choice but to either deposit if they want to continue playing … or moving on to the next casino.
I lean heavily towards thinking we’re losing more by taking this approach. Keep in mind that we are talking about a small % of people in the first place. Only those who can beat the play-thru requirements. Out of those winners I don’t know what the % is that are bonus chasers vs the % of players who are legit = end up depositing some of their own money but again I say that a first time winner is almost a guarantee to come back and visit three or four times more before they figure out that every trip to the casino isn’t going to be like the first one.
John you have the numbers although I’m sure its a bitch to crunch. But when you take into consideration that people (at least those in the states) carry one thing over into online gambling from the real world casinos and that is being entertained, leaving the casino happy .. win or lose … and all that comes with having the feeling you’ve been treated fairly. Given your fair chance at winning because you’re a sport, you know the odds are in their favor .. but you said you’d risk it anyway.
Now all that excitement, good will towards men and other crap goes right out the door when you’ve been thru a hassle or feel like you’ve not been given every fair chance and I don’t think people are going to feel they’ve been given every fair chance if they find out they had crossed that magic line of “you can’t earn any more but you can feel free to lose it all back” … and are not told.
I know I have mentioned Casino Rewards bonus system but actually many other MGS casinos offer the same (correct me if I’m wrong) type of accounting system where the bonus is kept separate and when the player has met all the requirements the bonus is then shifted over into the real money account.
Its all very upfront, saves what i’m sure is a ton of support traffic and bad feelings towards the casino. And must be working on some level because CR has offered ND bonuses for as long as I can remember.
@bb1webs 192380 wrote:
Yes Dom. you MUST cash out or all you stand to do is lose which nobody is going to do except somebody like me who wasn’t in there to beat the bonus in the first place it just happened. I have no idea how long I was past the requirements minimum or anything else.
see what I’m saying?
No, I am dense, lol. Maybe I will after my coffee. :tongue:
Are you saying that if I sign up as a new player and take a freebie to check things out with, see if I like the games, play the freebie away, deposit for real and then proceed to win, I can’t cash out even though I met requirements because at one point I had a freebie?
You would be allowed to cashin of course.
“Are you saying that if I sign up as a new player and take a freebie to check things out with, see if I like the games, play the freebie away, deposit for real and then proceed to win, I can’t cash out even though I met requirements because at one point I had a freebie?”
@Dominique 192432 wrote:
No, I am dense, lol. Maybe I will after my coffee. :tongue:
Are you saying that if I sign up as a new player and take a freebie to check things out with, see if I like the games, play the freebie away, deposit for real and then proceed to win, I can’t cash out even though I met requirements because at one point I had a freebie?
No you would be able to cash out. What is being said is that with the no deposit bonus of $15 the most that can be won is 150$. So if a player reaches $150 , there is no point to continue playing as anything over $150 will not be paid out on the no deposit bonus. So he must cash out and redeposit again.
@the27offsuit 192447 wrote:
No you would be able to cash out. What is being said is that with the no deposit bonus of $15 the most that can be won is 150$. So if a player reaches $150 , there is no point to continue playing as anything over $150 will not be paid out on the no deposit bonus. So he must cash out and redeposit again.
Ohh, thank you for removing the cobwebs in my brain!
That’s common practice. RTG does this also, plus you can’t win jackpots. If you do, you don’t get anything. One of my players won a nice RTG jackpot on a freebie, and while she was told she could not get paid, she was still listed as a big winner on the website. :tongue:
I think that the winning limit should be published right alongside the bonus if it comes in the mail.
Hi again all,
Dom you’ve got more going for you with the cobwebs than I can claim so no worries here.
But I do still feel you’re missing my point and maybe I should have included RTG (whether they showed up or not another question?) in my title. can you trade CR for RTG? I can’t change the title.
anyway … the money is still their’s … they’ve won it … and the only option left is to cash it out once they reach that peak.
I personally believe in the casino’s ability to take care of business and see no logic in forcing them to cash out money that no longer has any strings attached to it … when the whole idea was to get them in there and playing in the first place.
all I can say is that by that logic … if we were a submarine we’d have a screen door.
she was still listed as a big winner on the website
that’s not cool.
I guess she didn’t read the terms either?
Okay there’s more than just me … but I still believe that the majority of bonus chasers (whom I remind are the ones we want outed … and the good players to be pampered) are going to be savvy to when to cash out so the idea of hiding when you’ve met the requirements is really a bad one.
I should have added when i started this (I know I did elude to the few people this involves anyway) but with that in consideration also … I just don’t see the wisdom in not taking a very upfront approach: letting them know when they’ve cleared the boundaries: but not forcing them to cash out of the casino before they can proceed gambling further.
I’m amazed nobody has ever brought this up before.
@bb1webs 192462 wrote:
that’s not cool.
I guess she didn’t read the terms either?
Naw, she knew. Her heart stopped anyway – it would have been a godsent, and she asked to be sure. And then, when she saw her name on the website as winner, she thought they had changed their minds. :Cry: That was a rotten thing to do.
Plus it makes the jackpot disappear without having paid out….
When players do meet the wagering a lot of the time they are not at the min/max cashout value. If they have $40 balance then they can’t cashout so they have to keep wagering and either win or lose even if they have finished the wagering terms. If they exceed the wagering and are above $150 it’s up to the player to decide if they want to keep playing or not. No matter what it’s free money and I see no deception to the player either.
Regarding the popup to tell them they have met the wagering and can cashin, first they would have to be at $150 or higher and to have met the wagering plus not have played banned games. I wouldn’t be surprised if this has been done before but I can’t see any operator starting now. I’d like to hear other AMs comment on this so I’m not alone. Sure the player might appreciate that we have let them know they have finished the wagering but I think this is a can of worms discussion. If we do this for the no deposit bonus, then players are going to complain when we don’t do this for future promotions, and if we do this for future promotions then we’ll have more players cashing out the minimum wagering which will hurt profits. Players abuse bonuses to make money, they don’t abuse bonuses because the casino didn’t tell them how much wagering they had to do and want to get even, they already have an agenda in place. Most abusers don’t have to ask when they have met the minimum wagering, they already know exactly when to stop and some of them might wager 25% more thinking the casino manager won’t notice.
Secondly I strongly believe that in having this popup I’m going to encourage players to cashin once they have met the wagering requirements and the cost of this bonus is going to increase and the casino will have more cashins and the affiliate will feel a little as well. For the no deposit bonus I don’t know how much this would amount to. For future deposit bonuses if players only meet the minimum wagering they are allowed to do so but the value of this player is worth less than the player that wagers over the wagering amount. Most leisure players don’t cashin when they meet the terms, it’s usually the bonus hunters. The same applies for players who only claim no deposit bonuses or 100% or higher bonuses, their EV is going to be higher and if they cashin the minimum they will on average be a + EV player and even on slots.
In the end I think the $15 ND has more benefits than cons. The conversion rates of them are not great but they are better than none. These free samples are available at all software for casinos, poker, sports, bingo and If the player wants to see how much of the wagering they have completed it’s available for them in the cashier at all times and this was something Rival does that other software providers don’t, same for the payout percentages of the slots. If we wanted to be deceptive we would hide this but we don’t. If a player abuses any bonuses at Rivals they are paid but just denied future promotions and I can’t say the same happens with a few other casinos even on depositing match bonuses!
Now if we want to talk about deceiving bonuses let’s discuss freeplay at MG casinos. Anybody ever play these? Get $1000 free and keep your winnings **
Just some closing stats on the ND. About 1-2 % of players will cashin which varies from 1 in 50 to 1 in 100. Most of these players don’t have intentions to deposit and will only stick around to accept ND bonuses (example day 30 after they signup I might give them $5 free). My lifetime signup to 1st time depositing player ration is 17:1. In the past 30 days that ratio is 12:1 (keep in mind I only introduced the the first signup ND for $11 around Nov 2007 while the casino started in April 2006 without any ND signup). Of the ones that do cashin, and have met the terms and not played bonus banned games, most of the ones who wager the minimum or close to it usually end up on the bonus ban list. Anything 200% or higher over the wagering usually end up as being good players who stick around and make the VIP list. There are exceptions but these are the stats. The ones who don’t know you can get the wagering totals in the cashier, if they ask on livechat most of the time it’s to see if they have met the wagering and it’s usually for 100% to 150% of the wagering and of course usually end up on the bonus ban list. These actions alone won’t determine where they up on for their account status but it is usually reflective.
Thanks some interesting stats info here! :hattip:
I played a 1 hour bonus at a casino lately just to get a feel for these bonuses i will be promoting. I beat the bonus and as a gambler i kept going at a much smaller stake to beat the bonus. I was playing $1.00 five hands =$5 a hand and doing ok. while i was reading the T&C i noticed some very odd and complicated measures that had to be undertook to be able to claim the bonus money. One was that you had to register a play money account within 24 hours from the time you started your bonus. A little cheap eh? Thats what i thought… Well… there were a list of many outrageous things you have to do to meet the requirments. The thing is gamblers will gamble… BonusWhores will whore.. Am i right or wrong? The retention rate will be higher on the gamblers if you would just show them the truth if your going to decieve them well retention is not a offer here all there is is detention for you.(They will go elsewhere) You let the whores walk but also kick the gamblers out of your sight. You will have a shotty retention rate if the players who actually play and the bonus hunters that walk away with $200. BTW i bet $100 a spot bet 5 spots and quit the game because there is no way i would ever deposit to a casino who runs in circles. If you run cirlces you get nowhere. People who gamble and are loyal to a spot will look for these things they are not so stoopid like many think. They want a quick deposit and withdrawal on demand. Another thing is purposly delayed withdrawles from players accounts. Why do this? The players you retain will immediatly deposit right away when they want to gamble again. Why be scared of a player that depsoits? They wont stop, who cares about them withdrawing if they deposited in the first place and you showed them a good time THEY WILL DEPOSIT again. You may think ohh what do i know? Well you can consider what i know as an affiliate.. nothing… i havent even got my first site up yet. I am enrolled in University for web development.. means nothing.. i have gambled more then you could imagine online… LISTEN TO THE GAMBLERS AND AFFILIATES in the long run you will prosper.
I feel that there is a lot of crap around online casinos offering bonuses. If you want to give $15 to a new customer to make them sign up then you’ve given the customer $15. Sure, play through requirements are necessary to protect the casino. But it is a load of horse crap that once the player has met the play through requirements they are still limited in how much they may withdraw in the highly unlikely event that they do win any money at all.
It’s like a restaurant giving you a free $15 voucher to an all you can eat buffet. The only catch is that if you did eat two or more plates of food you can’t exit the restaurant before puking the excess plates of food into a bucket. (Your fault for not reading the small print on the Free Voucher to an all you can eat buffet). WTF.
Total crap. IMO. :hattip:
I agree with bb1webs, what is so special about this $15 bonus. If the customer still wins after jumping through all the hoops the casino placed before them then they deserve the money.
Another thing… hehe…
Land based casinos also spend money on promotions to get people to visit their casinos. I would like to know what they actually spend per gambler per year. I’m sure it amounts to more than $15 per head per year. (And they probably get a free drink as well).
They certainly don’t restrict the amount of money you can walk away with.
If somebody does gets busted abusing the system then they get tossed out the front door by security.
Consistently for me – the players that sign from freebie offers are low value players. For a while I was able to pretty much avoid freebies because there were alternative exciting promos. Now US players are stuck with Rival and RTG and it’s mostly freebie and match bonuses. It’s not making me or my players happy.
I do tons better with Vegas tech, and the tournies there. There is not even a comparison in player value.
That is likely not the same for everyone, different sites have different traffic types. But for me – I wish there were more innovative promos that present a challenge of some sort to the player. People who drop a few thousand a month don’t care about 5 or 25 bucks. It’s one bet out of many they want to make. It’s not worth the trouble.
Lower depositors see the challenge in beating the bonus, it becomes a hobby. Beating the bonus becomes all they want to do.
Large depositors respond a lot better to things like tournies. The challenge is still there, but they can buy in for ten bucks and make $100 bets because they get $1000 to play with. If they run down, they pay in another 10 bucks. When they make it to the top ten, (and they will if they rebuy until they hit a big payout) they leave the tournie, but they keep an eye on it to see if they get pushed down. So they stay in the casino and play for real while they watch.
This sort of thing adds to player enjoyment for bigger depositors.
Staggered bonuses also work better than freebies for me. But nothing works as well as a challenge.
So the freebie does work to attract novice players into the casino, no argument there. But then the freebie is viewed as a challenge by many players, and these then become tagged as “bonus abusers”. All they are doing is having fun trying to beat the challenge presented to them. Wouldn’t it be a lot better to provide a challenge that doesn’t create bonus abusers?
