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I seriously think the people who think up these bonuses … believe that gamblers live their whole life around gambling and therefore should know all the little details and specifics of taking a bonus and the fact is that a lot of them simply DO NOT CARE that much.
So many of them will take the bonus and thankfully most lose it back and nothing more comes of it but the times when they beat the system I can’t imagine them becoming anything more than bonus chasers because if you’re going to have to learn the system to such specifics … then why shouldn’t you play the system as it has taught you how it MUST be played.
Make it easy for them and they will stay ignorant of the specifics and that way you won’t have created an army of bonus chasers which after my last experience … I suspect is why there are so many of them currently.
I am totally confused here, are you talking about rewards or rivals? Who takes your money out of your account while you are playing and why?
You must be talking about the $15 no deposit signup at thisisvegas.
Yes there is a max cashout on this bonus and I don’t know what else you want me to say or do. I can’t and won’t change the terms on this and if I do then I’ll have bonus hunters attack the casino at the same time. It is $15 free money and if you get to cashout from it from meeting the wagering then good for you, it’s money that didn’t cost you anything. If I have a popup for all players saying you have met the wagering then I’m going to encourage players to only meet the wagering, you’ll see more cashouts and that’s going to dig into your affiliate commission.
I don’t get why you are calling me out specifically when there are probably 30-50 casinos who have the same ND bonus and everyone has similar terms. Just tell me what you think I should do differently and I’ll be happy to answer it.
At Rival …. I can tell you that you MUST cash out once you meet the requirements or all you stand to do is lose.
This is confusing me – you must cash out?
You must be talking about the $15 no deposit signup at thisisvegas.
pantasia currently has the same offer
If I have a popup for all players saying you have met the wagering then I’m going to encourage players to only meet the wagering, you’ll see more cashouts and that’s going to dig into your affiliate commission.
this why players SHOULD read the bonus terms BEFORE playing.
yet at Casino Rewards they have a statement that proclaims if you play to “just meet the requirements” that they can by their discretion choose to not pay you.
Well that’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Now I realize I am mixing the two systems so perhaps Casino Rewards handles things differently if they had the same situation … which is why I asked them to come in and explain what would happen?
I can not understand what you mean by “systems”
And I’m now seriously wondering if the bonus chasers haven’t been right all along.
You are referring to this post too ?
xxxhttp://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=340691st – I was wrong about bringing Casino Rewards into this. I posted that at top. so forget them.
John its this simple.
the way it is now you are in a sense saying its better to deceive the player and let them continue playing ignorantly until they either lose it all back or smarten up and then withdrawal.
decieving will not get you anywhere but looking exactly like what you are doing.
You are forcing the players to become experts at the whole bonus system and how it all works in order to ever do anything but lose. By forcing them to do that you are educating them to the exact thing you don’t want. a horde of bonus chasers.
If you were to do the figuring for them. Let them relax and not have to write support all the time to see if they’ve met the requirements etc … tell them that hey … we will tell you when you’re good to go.
then my friend … you still have them in front of the game they are playing. You’re assuming everybody is as stupid as I was … not the case. Most of them already know to watch the details and when to cash out.
Those not aware … will if/when they have my experience .. will become bonus chasers. why not? you’ve already had to learn how to do it.
Now consider if you just had a pop up telling them they’ve won the money outright. yes some are going to go cash out but don’t you think the true bonus chasers are doing that already?
But you might not lose so many to being JUST bonus chasers if you gave them that money while they’re still gambling … never forced them to go to the cashier … because that is what you MUST do in order to keep from being in a situation where there is nothing to gain and only the chance to lose …
you must withdraw and then you can deposit again … and you’re okay now to gamble and keep as much as you win. The problem with that is we’ve all but put the money in their pocket and shoved them out the door … rather than risk what?
The whole name of the game is odds. The odds say you will win. Why is that $150 special? Isn’t is just as likely to be won back by the casino as it is to not be?
sure. That’s why casinos are in business. So it makes no sense to me to chase these people to the cashier in order for them to actually claim money that is rightfully theirs. Which is all they have to do.
Not too tough. So I’ve got to figure the majority are going to do it. And I think you have a better chance of getting that $150 back by leaving them in there to gamble … than to have it as it is now and force them to cash out before they can continue to gamble … and be in a position where they can keep all their winnings.
BTW: I”m on your side John. You guys do good … I do good.
I’m not always right. Might not be here. But you only stand to gain from such discussions so please don’t be feeling defensive.
And perhaps I”m not getting my point across. What I am trying to say is that its like you’re protecting that $150 max amount allowed to win … rather than leave it on the table and let the business of casino … take care of business. It looks rinky-dink as it is.
or maybe I am mistaken and not understanding. But as I understand it … if you have met play-thru requirements and have over $150 … then it would be fruitless, even stupid to continue playing. Is that correct John?
ifso. then I stand behind my theory.
Oh I shouldn’t have said looks like you’re decieving the player but rather it looks that way when you word it like
If I have a popup for all players saying you have met the wagering then I’m going to encourage players to only meet the wagering, you’ll see more cashouts and that’s going to dig into your affiliate commission.
make no mistake. I am not ever about decieving anybody. that said: I do believe there are ways to accomplish your goals without hiding things or taking advantage of the ignorance of your customers.
which is why i offered the scenario of being upfront and seeing where it takes you.
finally sir: I didn’t single you out. I wrote in the title .. .Rival … not TIV. last I heard there were many more than just you.
We have been sharing PMs .. but as I glance back thru my posts I don’t think I ever mentioned your name or casino by title. ifso .. then I apologize. that was why i separated this from other private parts of our PM.
This is something all Rival casinos should consider.
Yes Dom. you MUST cash out or all you stand to do is lose which nobody is going to do except somebody like me who wasn’t in there to beat the bonus in the first place it just happened. I have no idea how long I was past the requirements minimum or anything else.
But I do know that now I am much more versed to watch the details so that next time I won’t make the same mistake. Whether i choose to continue to gamble that money i just was forced to cash out … I don’t know. its already in my pocket now.
see what I’m saying?
probably 30-50 casinos who have the same ND bonus and everyone has similar terms
btw: I thought this was just a situation at Rivals and CR because CR has the terms about advantage players. Which once i realized they have that separate bonus account .. lets them off the hook.
And consider that there are some bright minds at CR. Perhaps they saw it as I do .. that the casino exists because it wins in the long run. Where is the logic in forcing the player to quit where you worked SO HARD to get them … that being in front of a game .. and then force them to cash out and ONLY THEN can they proceed gambling … but of course they’ll have to deposit … lets hope their deposit methods are as good as the payout method because we know $150 is going their way every time they cash out.
Why not keep that money in the casino and possibly have them gamble it back … but yes there is absolutely the risk that they will win more and wipe out our commissions but what makes that $150 special? Why will it beat us so soundly when if it came from any other source … we’d be thrilled to see it deposited.
John can you at least see my logic enough to explain to me where I am wrong?
edited to add: I meant any Rival AM … I just said John because he’s been answering and I’d say the cat’s out of the bag about which AM I was discussing this with
Hang in there John. One of these days i might come up with an idea to make you rich…er.
One last thing. In respect to the player who is ignorant of how the bonus system works and therefore will be one of those who increases the number of people cashing out
because that was a fear was that there would be an increased number of people cashing out
well there again I say the bonus chasers will know when to quit. Only the innocent … the types who really (in my mind) deserve to win big on a bonus … will be the ones that are cut out of the herd by means of not announcing when the player has met the requirements and therefore the money is now theirs without restrictions.
And the best thing from a casino’s pov to happen to a new player is to have them win. I talked about this to some extent with … I think his name was Mark … at Windows casino … way, way back in the day.
We agreed that if given the chance to cheat a player the smarter move would be to ensure they win the first time they come in and play … not to send them home unhappy.
I think that still applies and ifso … well those are the ones you’re cutting out of the picture by taking advantage of their ignorance about not quitting when they should.
I think that you’re absolutely right BB1webs.
There is no magic number, the source of the funds doesn’t make it special, generally when a person has met the wagering requirement then they should be free to go about their gambling business – withdraw – carry on gambling – or even deposit some more – whatever.
That would obviously be the simpliest way to administer this, easy to promote, and great for affiliates and players.
However ….I do see this $15 no deposit being a nightmare for casinos that offer it, as gambling theory on simple games like blackjack, baccarat and roulette show that “lucky streaks” can run into major wins.
Not the first time, not the 10th time, or even the 100th time, but without some sort of upper limit a lucky run and aggressive staking strategy could run into a HUGE loss.
And if these offers are taken up aggressively by affiliates, and the number of no deposit players significantly outnumber players investing their own cash then this sort of offer becomes a markedly negative proposition (IMO).
So I understand where John is coming from too – but as you’ve pointed out the implementation of the rule is so poor that it’s effectively going to cause more grief than glee and no-one is going to be happy.
A bonus whore might be carefully monitoring turnover spend and comparing it to requirements, but few genuine players think that.
So what is the no deposit bonus trying to achieve ?I assumed that the whole point of the no deposit bonus is to allow a customer to try the experience – win a little – lose a little – and get “hooked” on the site. And let’s face it – the players who are most hooked are those that have a winning experience.
IF/when these people have a good first run (perhaps over the $150 limit) and run into cash handling problems when trying to withdraw a portion of it them you’ve lost a potential depositing customer for good.
Where am I at?
I understand John (and Rival Casinos in general) trying to limit exposure to freeloaders – but this implementation is not the best way of doing it.
I sure can talk a lot and not say what G accomplishes in one post. (my bad)
and thanks G.
ps.
I do see what you’re saying and in fact we talked about that (here at home) and they could always add in a “cooling-off” period and tell them that it takes a while for the process to complete and to come back in X amount of time to continue playing.
one idea to curb the big winner and yet not run everybody else off.
We also discussed the theory of the business of a casino. That it plays out over huge numbers and that it works … or they’d not still be in business.
However that said : John is protecting us smaller people with the limit as we cannot absorb the loss like the casino can with its many players.
But I don’t think the save is worth the possible losses. In the end as G put it … it is their money to do with as they please … and I add my statement then why not let them stay in front of the games where we were trying to get them in the first place and trust that the casino will do its job.
I don’t have all the answers but I do question that there isn’t a better way.
ok a lot of good points here and I’m going to sit on it a little and talk to some people about it including Rival. Would like to see more discussion to get more POVs.
It would be nice if Rival could implement something like RTG casinos have in their cashier area, showing you exactly what your withdrawable amount is and how much still needs to be wagered when bonuses are claimed. Then the player could find out easily, when they’ve met wagering.
I can see why a casino wouldn’t want a popup telling players that. I definitely think a popup is out of the question. But there should be an easy way for a player to check to see how much more needs to be wagered or if they’ve met wagerig, without contacting support over and over.
