- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Running poker tournaments without a licence always has been and will be illegal in the UK. The guy was a muppet. Why the fuck not get a licence instead of trying to be some sort of poker martyr?
What kinda crack are you two smokin’? :tongue:
Gawd I cannot believe I am letting myself get drawn in to such a futile debate while Rome is burning, but I don’t understand how otherwise educated people can believe the utterly silly things I’m reading here.
Yes, Gooner, I was never arguing about the element of chance… read the posts again. It’s the degree of chance vs. skill.
NO ONE EVER SAID POKER IS NOT GAMBLING.
NO ONE SAID POKER HAS NO ELEMENT OF CHANCE.
But if you think for one second that poker is anything like roulette or slots… well… see the crack smokin’ comment above. All that was said was that the element of chance is present in many other things otherise considered a skill.
It’s this such a difficult concept?
And BTW, So what if poker is gambling? What part of the skill / luck debate does that even play into? Gambling can be done on anything… skill or not… I could bet you $1,000 that the sun will come up in the west tomorrow and I bet you take that bet… even giving me 100-1.
Not trying to be unpopular here, but, yeah, poker IS a game of chance – 100%.
You and Gooner drinking the same Wild Turkey? You’re obviously no poker player. :wink-wink
You can have two Aces and your oponent 6 and 9, and you could be the most skilled poker player in the world – and still there are 5 more cards which can turn around the game based on pure CHANCE.
OK then… I tell ya what:
You give me the two aces, and I’ll give you a 6 / 9 , and we’ll play for $100 a hand and see who has the most cash at the end of the night. Wanna go? No? Well why not?
Because you know that’s a dumb thing to do and you’d lose a lot of money.
So which is it then? If poker is really 100% chance as you say (and I’m still laughing about that) then you should take me up on my offer…
… if not, then you’re theory is wrong. 😎
Integrity wrote:What kinda crack are you two smokin’? :tongue:Gooner drinking the same Wild Turkey?
Well one of us is being a Turkey …
Or perhaps it’s still a brain freeze from standing in the snow last week ??
:crazy:No I’m not saying Poker is like roulette or slots – where do you read that?
Where the (beeep) did I say that?
:xmas:You introduced that fatuous concept in an attempt to give your argument some credence.
:lookarounInterestingly the other “skill game” mentioned in the report is CHESS.
That’s a game where you have skill, skill, skill … and a dose of skill.The other chance game mentioned was roulette.
Lady luck – pure and simple.Poker is not roulette – but nor is it chess. The facts are that there is a significant amount of luck in any single hand of poker – in my estimation perhaps as much as 30-40% – as you have to gamble on an unknown – what hand does the oppoennt have – and that’s enough to mean it’s not a skill game as defined in the statutes.
Sure you can buy books on systems, do a lot of learning – but you’re still working on the 60%=70% that you can influence – you still need the luck and the cards to win.
Over the course of major tournaments the “best players” are being knocked out repeatedly with bad beats (unlucky cards?) so that we get the situation now that the best players have to run their own HORSE tournament with exclusive buy-ins to find the “best player” …
… because they have decided that they have no “chance” of beating the “luck” of all these awful amateur internet players and becoming “world Champion” any more.
—-
Then you ask so WTF if poker is Gambling ??? (which it is)
Well it’s central to the whole discussion – which you’ll realise when your brain thaws out.
Gambling means get a bloody gambling license !!
Gambling is a popular business in the UK – sure !!But bookmakers are legal – when they’re licensed.
And Casinos are legal – when they’re licensed.
And if someone whant to take 10% rake off poker games – then they need a bloody gambling license !!!That’s all the judge and jury said.
It’s called sensible gambling regulations – and there is little doubt that poker is a game that should be covered under gambling regulations. To argue otherwise … is just a losing arguement.
So in answer to your question :
– yes I’m wild after reading your rantings ..
– but it’s not ME being the Turkey …
:cheers:END OF STORY
LOL!
Oh Paul Paul Paul… I love how you always write “End of Story” like that’s supposed to make me think “Gee… I better leave it alone…”
:highflyer :highflyer :highflyer :highflyer :highflyer
Now I tried not to insult you… just a soft ribbing. But you seem offended and intent on taking this to a more personal level which I will not go to.
This is a stupid thread now… and stupid as it is you have at least admitted that poker is more skill than chance… which was my original point… so I thank you for conceding that.
I did in fact compare poker to roulette to show the valid point you have conceded… that poker is in fact mostly skill and perhaps 35% chance. I especially love the part where you say…
…you have to gamble on an unknown – what hand does the oppoennt have – and that’s enough to mean it’s not a skill game as defined in the statutes…
What a contradiction in terms.
Even you see the skill needed for that… even if you cannot agree with it. Does a football coach “gamble” with a play call? Does a stockbroker “gamble” with an aggressive pick? Does a writer “gamble” on a delicate movie or book subject? My money is on YES… even though all those things take skill.
But, according to you and “Stupid” (that’s his name, not an insult) chance is so much more important that a pro football player is really no better than you or I… they just get lucky more often. In fact, on any given day, the ol’ Gooner could suit-up and play linebacker for the Bears! LOL! Good luck with that…
OH! And as far as your tornament theory…
…major tournaments the “best players” are being knocked out repeatedly with bad beats…
Which is why Hellmuth has 10 bracelets… LOL!!!!!
Tell me this: Were the red Chinese better soilders that the Americans in Korea? Or were there just so damn many of them that they ran over a superior force? That’s the modern WSOP in a nuttshell… If the numbers were even, skill would kick the living crap outa luck.
Now, when you calm down and stop with the “brain on ice” attempts to belittle me realize that I never in any way, shape or form given any statement that this guy didn’t need a license… never… hold on I’ll check again…. ahhhh…. nope. Didn’t say it.
The entire reason for this thread was that the Poker Player Alliance here in the US is trying to get an exemption from the legistation for Poker as a game of skill (yea a long shot, but ya never know).
This ruling hurts that chance, I believe, and I dissagree with it for all the reasons I’ve stated over and over and over so many times that my fingers hurt.
This thread is utterly useless now, and it’s late where I am, so I will take my small little frozen brain to bed… get up in the morning fresh, and see how much more creative you can be with the personal statements over my morining coffee…
:thumbsup:
PS if yer gonna say “End of Story” each time you close your post, then you really should start them “Once upon a time…” . LOL!
:wavey:
I didn’t “admit” that poker has a skill element (of say 60%-70%) – I happily hold that position before, during and after your “cunning trick” ..
:crazy: .Although your weird anology about military might completely throws me (but then that is a very US trait) … I see no element of luck in war .. indeed all war is very, very unlucky for all participants … and no relevance at all.
:crazy:The sporting examples are similarly werd … and bear no relevance at all – but anything to fill up a post eh?
:crazy:Writers, coaches, stockbrokers making decisions, all seem totally irrelevant to me here – and if that’s the thrust you’re going to use to get poker declared a game of skill in the US … (ouch)
:toidy:While you are eloquent when you’re writing this stuff – it’s so far from the actual discussion that it makes no points of value.
I write END OF STORY because that’s all the UK judge ruled on :
– poker equals gambling with chance (the only thing in dispute)
– and gambling rake was taken by the club
– and gambling for house profits needs a license
– and defendant doesn’t have a licenseTherefore GUILTY – and the guy was a misguided idiot to try the poker is not gambling defence !!
That really is the END OF STORY …
Nothing more – no relevance to US definitions –
Just UK case law.Well, all I can say if you are unable to understand the analogies then it’s no surprise you think poker has more to do with luck than skill. :beatup:
As far as the attempt to twist this into some American glorification of war… that’s really a sad stretch. If I were from New Zealand I’d of used an analogy with sheep, I suppose. :happy: :happy: :happy: A JOKE… dont get all offended! LOL!
I suppose I will just see you on the felt in London, where you will be going all-in every hand since it’s only fate that matters… that is, if you were lucky enough to qualify for the tourney!!!:woo-hoo: :bigsmile: :capmiami:
:rasta:
When I say poker has 60%-70% skill … how does that mean I think it has more luck than skill ?
:lookarounI’d not discuss war or politics on the board either – having roots in a small village just outside Belgrade I can talk to you first hand about the horrors of it all.
It not a subject to be belittled by comparing it to poker.
:nono:And the sporting concepts you proposed were silly – I didn’t talk sport – I didn’t say luck was a big part of sporting success – so I couldn’t make any sense of the points your were trying to make.
:lookarounI just don’t get your points at all in relation to this UK situation.
:crazy:Ok boys play nice. This is a decent discussion of something that DID happen in the UK that potentially effects our industry. There is no need to drag Crack Pipes or insults into the thread.
Obviously the main problem here was the person convicted was operating without a required license. That can and will happen with legal activities in any industry. Moral of the story, get any required licenses before you throw up a shingle and start doing business.
Regarding Poker and its status as a skill game or game of chance its going to come down to oppinion in our cases. We can have fun batting it around, but it doesnt really matter what we say if a court rules otherwise.
One thing I would point out, when you go to Vegas or Atlantic City they specialize in Games of Chance, all larger casinos have a poker room. None I know of have a Chess room. I understand they only take a percentage of rake and it could be on any game, but it still leads me to believe that people in the land based Gaming industry do see poker as a game of chance.
actually we did play nice by PMs ..
:happy:Should have posted them on the forum
:bigsmile:TheGooner wrote:When I say poker has 60%-70% skill … how does that mean I think it has more luck than skill ?Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…….
Because 100% minus 60% leaves 40%?
And, um, 60% is more than 40%?
But heck, I was always bad at math….:p
TheGooner wrote:It not a subject to be belittled by comparing it to poker.Actually that analogy came from the last issue of Bluff Magazine.I’d write them a letter.
And please do not imply that I think war is a good thing. C’mon man, people make war anaolgies all the time.
TheGooner wrote:And the sporting concepts you proposed were sillyWell, ok… maybe in London I’ll buy you a beer and explain it better. :inlove:
Do I see a possible love match in London?:woo-hoo:
Integrity You shouldnt have done that dress up thing with the lipstick in your video. It seems to have given SOMEONE unclean thoughts… :laughcry:
Lou I think you’ve seen me in a new light…LOL But you’ll have to fight Paul for me! :laugh:
=========================
To close this all out, my only point in all of this was that I was very disappointed in this ruling and dissagree with it completely.
I never ment to imply that I believed this guy didn’t need a license, because skill or not, poker is still gambling.
It’s just one more bad thing for our industry….
Right now that he’s gone I just wanna add ….
:hehe:Nah … that was my point too.
Gambling regulation is good – and the way forward.
Poker is gambling (skill and chance % are still up for debate)
And you need to be licensed to run a raked gambling operation.
:popcorn:…
err … END OF STORY
:hehe:Okay all other discussions aside for a moment because I know zilch about poker. But is their not Poker Pros? You know the people who actually make a living off playing the game. I find it interesting because in Canada gambling winnings are 100% tax-free. A few years back a guy in Montreal living quite well his only employment was playing Poker. Yeah he had the nice house, a few cars, and a huge stash of cash the only job gambling.
Anyway the Canadian Government became rather interested in this fellow. He had not paid federal or provincial taxes in more than ten years. After being questioned he simply said to the authorities I make my living playing Poker. The Canadian government said so its’ a job? and is taxable. This fellow eventually ended up in court only to have all charges dismissed. Winnings from gambling proceeds are not taxable, after all who could possible make a living from it? This guy certainly did and continues to do so still to this day.
Anyway, I would consider this fellow to be a skill Poker player.
Greek39
Ok, what I really want to know are the exact probabilities. Where´s the wizard :happydanc
The main problem is that they didn´t have a license. If you set up a booth on Trafalgar Square and start selling liquor then you will face the same problem.
