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Yes – I agree Ive already spent about 1200 of my own money, BUT If this process assist me in discovering that I am promoting bad casinos either be it by bad stats or by bad customer service to the players then maybe it will be worth it.
I do agree however that in the “long run” something BIGGER will have to come of it as I dont want to be spending a few grand of my own money each and every month.
Lets just say I am doing my best / doing my part in getting the ball rolling … (At least I hope)
Hi,
geez Lou, you’d think I’d said I was going to start the second nazi movement.
there’s no need to get upset, I’m certainly not forcing my ideas on anyone else, but rather was just trying to maybe help avoid further turbulence.
As I mentioned, I’d really rather have hit the ground running with this idea before going public with it. Since I have no knowledge in the area of databases, someone is sure to beat me to it now.
anyway…
What matters to me is not proof that you could prosecute a cheater with; I just need to know for myself and if I find out a casino is cheating me; I drop them and move on.
As for player privacy, I would of course make it clear that I am privy to what they write, and I think it is foolish of anyone to ever think their private accounts are not at times, viewed by other eyes, regardless of what niche.
And I think many others think as I do. If you don’t want anybody else to know about it; IMHO you’re a fool to ever put it anywhere on the net.
Secure site or not, I always feel I’m gambling when I use my credit card online, but its a necessity I must live with.
Now as to my players, I have several that trust me to the extent of (some) have given me their player acct #s AND passwords, because i needed to access their account to be able to see the hand history to look up a the hand they were concerned about. I also have one player that actually gives me access to his neteller account so I can see at the end of the month exactly where and what he has played.
I’ve never given any of them reason to doubt my integrity. True, most of them were originally in a position where they thought their money was lost anyway so why worry about giving me their account #s and passwords, …. but never the less – as an example, one lady had around $600 bucks in her account, and when I left it was of course, still there. I earned their trust.
Now to the point of the matter; (aside from privacy issues)
its true that I may not know their last names, or their account numbers. But if they write down they went to casinoX today and deposited $100, and lost $88,
then when I go check my stats at the casino in question, it had better have AT LEAST that much showing for earnings for that day (or next day, depending on whether the stats are realtime or not)
as for the usefullness of this idea, well Chips brought up an excellent point to me: about how often a player will download a casino, lose, then uninstall, and then later on want to play again but has lost their password/account #
you email support and 2 days later you get a reply. Using a set up like I am talking about, the player could go to their own personal account and look up this info in the same amount of time it would have taken them to email or call support, or find the old newspaper where they’d originally jotted down the account info.
not too mention fathoms of other such related info that one might want to keep handy, but that they don’t want to keep on their own PCs for whatever reason.
I love the idea and have already made up my mind before I ever started this post.
I just thought that by sharing the idea, that it might calm the waters.
I fully support both Ark and Int (as he will tell you, I (try) to send in my info every month). what they are doing and what I am thinking are all working towards the same goal, but mine is a simple man’s tool that I can tell you from having limited experience to such knowledge, is an effective way of knowing if you are getting paid all you should.
they are much above my head. to quote dirty Harry, “A man’s got to know his limitations”.
I know mine.
ps.
edited to add: after further thought on the passwords, I would probably recommend people NOT keep their passwords in these accounts, without at least using some sort of simple trick such as adding numbers or writing it backwards, just anything that would fool someone that somehow entered and was to steal the passwords.
and I’d finish that thought with ” but above all, remember that protecting passwords is best done on paper or using some sort of precaution such as maybe keeping passwords (numbered) on one document, and the respective casino accounts on a different saved document, etc) they could keep one on their PC, the other at my site; but even if its all kept on their PC…
even the best hacker in the world is likely to go right by 2 documents saved as “my poems” and “my hemroid medicine schedule”.
simple precaution, very effective results.
Arkyt,
You have an extreme dedication to drop over a grand out’a pocket… I must say. However, I don’t think any webmaster should have to spend $15,000 a year of his/her own cash because some affiliate programs have questionable tracking and/or ethics. That’s in part why I have membership dues… and short of gathering up donations (good luck
!) I personally haven’t thought of another feasible way to fund the tests in the long term…Originally posted by bb1webs
What matters to me is not proof that you could prosecute a cheater with; I just need to know for myself and if I find out a casino is cheating me; I drop them and move on.My thought was that — for an organization, and not an individual — the proof needs to be so solid that it will hold up under the criticism of those being tested. Due to the very nature of the APCW, I think that’s how my data needs to be… and to help ease that “burden of proof” somewhat, I have stated I want to let webmasters make their own decisions based on what I report.
For example, if I say:
Quote:On Friday night I downloaded Casino “A”, deposited $150, and lost it playing video poker. The stats did not update to reflect this player loss for over 48 hours, at wich time I called the casino and inquired. They reported that they had no one to run an update over the weekend. Monday’s stats updated propery.For some webmasters, that’s enough “proof” to drop a program.
For others, they may think it’s odd, but reserve judgement.
For the rest, they may say “that sounds reasonable”.If I re-test a month later and get similar results, then opinions may change… but there’s a chance it may not be a deliberate cheat, right?
So, if it is a glitch or tech issue, and I say “cheaters”, have I really fulfilled my responsibility as the auditor?
But, If I just report facts, and it is a glitch or tech issue, then (if webmasters do drop the program based on my audit), I can always say “Well, Casino ‘A’, you need to get yer shit together”…
And if it’s not a glitch, well, they are still being exposed and losing business.
I dunno… it’s really tricky if we want to use these tests outside of this private forum
Originally posted by bb1webs
As for player privacy, I would of course make it clear that I am privy to what they write…I have several (players) that trust me to the extent of (some) have given me their player acct #s AND passwords…I’ve never given any of them reason to doubt my integrity.Yes, it always amazes me when a player does this. But I think those type are the vast minority. I mean, in APCW, there are over 70 webmasters… about 35 state they will report stats… and not all of those do every month. Players may lose interest or not keep track at all, after a while.
Originally posted by bb1webs
But if they write down they went to casinoX today and deposited $100, and lost $88, then when I go check my stats at the casino in question, it had better have AT LEAST that much showing for earnings for that day…But what do you do if casinoX is swearing that this player never played, and you’ve never had a bad test with them before? Who do you believe? How do you prove this player did deposit that $100? And even if he did, how do you prove he played it, and lost it? How do you prove he had no cookies from before with another webmaster code? These are things casinos will throw out to make us look foolish and dismiss our findings.
Player privacy issues are important. But, with that said, if you have players willing to submit the data and they are fully aware you are viewing it then I dont have a problem with it.
I too have been funding players out of pocket.
I bet there is a lot of that going on, and we would all be better off if we pooled this.
But what do you do if casinoX is swearing that this player never played, and you’ve never had a bad test with them before? Who do you believe? How do you prove this player did deposit that $100? And even if he did, how do you prove he played it, and lost it? How do you prove he had no cookies from before with another webmaster code? These are things casinos will throw out to make us look foolish and dismiss our findings.
Well Int a lot of it has to do with the situation (in my case). Since I’m not out to prove anything, except to myself, I would take the above example into consideration with a number of factors, namely how well the casino in question has proven to perform in the past/currently.
If its a place doing a decent return of income, I’d be much more likely to chalk it up to a one of the reasons you mentioned, or some other.
But lets take it a step further, and say its a big deposit by a big player, whose deposits have always shown up before.
In that case, with a proven performer, I’d still give them another chance though they’d have lost much credibility with me since I’d be thinking they were siphoning-off my good big players after a set amount of time. and you can bet I’d be looking for more of the same like a hawk.
Because that is where a lot of our income is based, and like many others, I cannot afford to send this type of player to some place that is going to be cutting short my residuals.
if it were a casino that was on the bubble, or that only performed what I call “part-time” (we’ve all got those and I’d bet their the same damn places month after month. one month you make a decent income and next you’re in the hole – which wouldn’t seem so strange if it weren’t so obvious) or if it was a casino that didn’t produce, they’d be gone without a second thought.
I think Int’s approach is a good one. Don’t even try to be the judge and jury, “just the facts M’am” and let the individual decide for themselves.
Because I for one don’t automatically hang a label on a program because of what someone else has said. I’ve learned the hard way that you shouldn’t trust what any one person has to say about a program, but that you should very much respect what is said, look for similar patterns in your own stats, and make your judgement based on these findings.
I would imagine many other folks do likewise.
As for Ark, I have one question. To what gain will it do you to get “positive proof” that a program is cheating? Short of saying, “I told you so” – I don’t see a reason for needing so much. If you find a program’s stats are not proving to be accurate; and that program has never made you money, isn’t that enough to say screw ’em?
I think the bottom line is always the best answer to many questions posed along this subject. If you’ve got a good one, and find inaccurate stats then you should contact your aff manager and have them look into it. (I’m doing this right now in fact).
if you aren’t seeing the kind of results you expect; then regardless of what testing proves, you’re smart in the long run to dump the program anyway, IMHO. No sense sending traffic that make good money elsewhere, to a place where you’re only seeing a lesser % than you think you could make somewhere else.
Testing for me is more checking to see if I’m getting all that I’m owed, than to see if a program is accurately reporting new signups etc. In other words, the bottom line speaks to me first. If a program isn’t doing squat; what do I care if they are cheating? they are coming down anyway. But a program where you’ve climbed to an expected amount of income every month; and does not continue to climb. is where I will focus my testing.
the losers are easy to spot and rid yourself of; but those that skim off the top are not as easy to spot, and are certainly most expensive since that is (likely) where you’ll be sending the bulk of your traffic.
As for Ark, I have one question. To what gain will it do you to get “positive proof” that a program is cheating? Short of saying, “I told you so” – I don’t see a reason for needing so much.
YES – but currently I am doing so foremost for myself. I refuse to be content with making money if I feel a partner is taking advantage of me to what ever extent!
I make pretty good money with a few programs, but if I had proof they were skimming the pot there would be no second guessing Id cut their hands off. Ive tossed programs down the tube before that were making me over a grand a month – I will NOT hesitate to toss away much more if I were to have verifiable proof I am being cheated.
Quote:If a program isn’t doing squat; what do I care if they are cheating?Thats pretty much saying if you were making really good money you wouldnt care if they were cheating joe schmo … THATS SAD!
Thats pretty much saying if you were making really good money you wouldnt care if they were cheating joe schmo … THATS SAD!
well that’s not what I meant at all. What I meant by that was that they are coming down anyway, so it really doesn’t matter what they are doing.
That said however, its not my job to be the net police. Of course I don’t want to see anybody cheated, but would I enter any more of my time/resources to catch/positive prove that a casino is cheating that isn’t making me any money in the first place?
Not a chance.
ps
I refuse to be content with making money if I feel a partner is taking advantage of me to what ever extent!
I agree completely. But do I need positive proof that I am being cheated before I make such a decision? No.
twice caught is twice baked in my kangaroo court. And all the explaining-away in the world won’t change my mind about a program that I’ve caught twice not reporting income or signups.
I’m sure I will make a mistake or two in the process and may take down links to a program that didn’t actually deserve it but I am not about to spend $1000s of dollars to know for certain whether its a glitch on top of a glitch, or cheating on purpose. Finances demand a more affordable way of doing business (at least for me). Therefore I must at times make judgement calls and move on.
Originally posted by bb1webs
Well Int a lot of it has to do with the situation (in my case). Since I’m not out to prove anything, except to myself, I would take the above example into consideration with a number of factors, namely how well the casino in question has proven to perform in the past/currently.I think you’ve made an important distinction here… which is what I was trying to say in other posts: That as an “association”, my ‘burden of proof’ has to be much higher than an individual if I’m going to call a program’s integrity into question. To that end, I chose to just report facts and let others make decisions on a personal basis.
Originally posted by bb1webs
But lets take it a step further, and say its a big deposit by a big player, whose deposits have always shown up before. In that case, with a proven performer…Now… that point is why we have these discussions!
I had not yet thought of setting up an audit account this way! I could do a small deposit… say $50… and let those stats show up. Do another $50 a month later… see if those stats show up… then hit them for $500 on the same account.
Believe me, if that $500 didn’t show up, the ‘facts’ as reported would be pretty darn hard to dispute. And believe me, I may not have the APCW come out and say the casino cheated… but I sure as hell would state something to the effect of : “Due to suspicious irregularities and large reporting discrepencies, the APCW can no longer endorse Casino Program X.” And then I would report the audit in very painful detail.
What can be done to audit disappearing whales ?
:rolleyes:
my best efforts towards such so far, has come by becoming friends with some players (ie- helping them out with some sort of situation that they approached me about and it progressed from there) and then its just a matter of asking once in a while if they’re still playing at the casino you signed them under.
short of that; or this idea I’ve mentioned here; I don’t see how you could, as an individual.
Int really is going to be you’re best bet at this end of things in my opinion because hopefully he’ll have the funds to test with numbers I could only dream about using.
I doubt any one person is going to be able to afford to test as a whale, and do it enough of a regular basis to check towards that end. Meaning you’d have to at least make and play what? 5 or 6 big deposits over a period of a couple of months to even begin to touch the surface of what you’re really wanting to know. at least that’s how I see it.
thus the reason I thought giving players a place to keep track of their play was a great idea. if you get somebody in there that is a big player you’d finally be able to follow them and it would begin to answer a lot of unanswered questions that I think we’d all like to have a taste of.
ps.
Aleph, I love your sig line.
signed,
the most experienced man for as far as the eye can see in any direction.
I had not yet thought of setting up an audit account this way! I could do a small deposit… say $50… and let those stats show up. Do another $50 a month later… see if those stats show up… then hit them for $500 on the same account.
Yes, that is a very good way to test.
I use friends around the world to audit all the affiliate programs I am working with, I cought quite a few and I stoped working with them, It is worth a few ’00 $ a month if you are into that biz.
Originally posted by Janet
I use friends around the world to audit…So, between the guys & gals in here who are most likely a great deal more tech savvy than myself, please try to answer this:
Am I doing any good by playing these casinos via a proxy server?
Some of these proxy’s can make my IP look like Australia, South Africa, the UK, Canada, Mexico…. But I always wonder if my ISP could be traced and, thus, expose me if they are watching for the APCW audit.
Originally posted by Janet
I cought quite a few and I stoped working with them…Anyone we know???!!! :confused: :p
most casinos have in their TOS that the affiliates can NOT play , this is why I am using friends.
regarding the ones I cought, I can freely speak on the ones I didn’t (yet :confused: ), take a look at my sites and you will see theones I am still working with
/Janet
