- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
First, thanks Krystall… your help and participation in APCW as a big affiliate helps lend credibility. As well as the prominent placement Professor gives on his boards… a huge debt of gratitute is owed to you guys, and to all other webmasters in APCW who contribute to the data and/or display the banner on their sites… even you, Randy!
Now for you, Miss Janet
Originally posted by Fergie
Isn’t it horrible how one psycho can have such a negative impact on our industry? Well it can’t if we don’t let it.Well… yes & no.
YES IT CAN: It has already impacted the industry in a very negative way. Things were rocky even before the GPWA “boycot” of GIGSE in May 2003… and went downhill from that point in rapid fashion.
NO IT CAN’T: We can re-build what has been torn down. But to do so, we must respect the reluctance of some, and tred carefully until we are seen as a responsible, professional, knowledgable, educated group of none psycho’s!!!
Originally posted by Fergie Correct me if I’m wrong, but the most prominent reason the GPWA has gone downhill from a promising start, is the actions of one person…
Sadly, you are correct. But the reality is that in this industry one person can and often times does screw things up for many others.
Originally posted by Fergie There are a lot of programs not members there (APCW), however, so we are testing others ourselves.
Absolutely. But, if they were members, we wouldn’t have to pay out of our own pockets to test. Hopefully, APCW can get large wenough that I can supplement other webmasters to help test member casinos!
Originally posted by Fergie The results of APCW tests are rather ellusive. I would like to see them included in the monthly reports, at least – a running score with each casino’s test results…
I don’t try to make them elusive, I try to make them dry… as in, “… the facts, m’aim… just the facts”. Janet, you know what happened with the audit I conducted through your affiliate link. And you know that there was a “reasonable” explanation.
That program will be tested again and again, and if patterns emerge I won’t have to make any accusations… the webmasters will see the facts for themselves. What may be enough “proof” for me to drop a program may not be enough for another. That’s why APCW just reports facts and tries very hard to never dictate how webmasters run their businesses…
…like the GPWA boycot… like the GPWA Spyware war…
I want my members to be educated enough to run their business the best way they see fit… while I avoid any appearance of having personal agendas.
It’s a narrow road.
Originally posted by Fergie But, since I don’t pay any dues, and I don’t do any of the work there, I am very reluctant to demand or even suggest anything – I know my place!
lolThe APCW did require dues from webmasters at one point… $10/month. Very few joined. It flew in the face of creating a large, united group of webmasters. The $10 dues idea came from my belief that — if members are paying to participate — they are far less likely to shoot their mouths off with flames…
…again, this directly came from the desire to move in the opposite direction of the GPWA.
Times change… perhaps APCW will change a bit too…
That’s why APCW just reports facts and tries very hard to never dictate how webmasters run their businesses…
…like the GPWA boycot… like the GPWA Spyware war…
I want my members to be educated enough to run their business the best way they see fit… while I avoid any appearance of having personal agendas.
Ah yes, my old projects. For those who were not around then:
I follow my conscience – always, and I will never regret doing so.
There was nothing wrong with the Montreal event – I tried to be fair to Rivercity and had only one complaint – that Gator (scumware) as scheduled to speak at the affiliate portion of the conference.
When there was no sign of cancellation of that speech, I organized a free event for affiliates to run at that time – giving them a chance to avoid having to sit and listen to the company that stole their cutomers. It brought a lot of people to Montreal who would not have come otherwise, and while it took away from the affiliate portion of the convention, it added to the other part. I think likely the finances for the convention broke even.
The alternate event was fun albeit I would do it a lot differently today. One lives and learns.
Regarding the boycott of casinos that used scum – I still think to this day that IF ALL affiliates had taken part for one month only, it would have made a huge difference. In everyone’s pocketbook.
I lived and learned there also, and I would never try to organize a boycott again. Affiliates are a bunch of very individualistic, smart entrepreneurs and it is impossible to get everyone on one page.
No one dictated anything. It is not only impossible but also undesireable, and if anyone felt they were “dictated” something, it wasn’t my doing.
As far as flames and feuds – they have no place in a professional community.
That said, I support Integrity’s approach and am a member of APCW. I think that an association is supposed to diseminate information to it’s members as priority, and recommend actions only if necessary.
Last not least, I don’t think I have seen any testing results from APCW. Where are they?
The testing results are in the members section directly beneath the performance reports on the right hand side of the page. The title of the section is “audited members data.”
Thanks Randy.
I didn’t notice that information there before, either.
Dom – at least you tried very hard to do something about scumware. What’s that old expression……”the only failure is not trying”?
Dom,
To be honest, I had forgotten that it was you who actually implemented those things. I remember you pushing them hard, but when I refer to those campains (the boycott and the scum war) I remember it as a GPWA thing with Cindy spurring us on… and you as her “right hand”, so to speak, cracking the whip!!! :whipper”
Both of these are, indeed, noble ideas. However, the results acheived were not the results we were after. River City was pissed and took it personally.
You are correct: The “scum war” was a bust because webmasters did not participate at the same level of commitment. The end result was that the webmasters who didn’t participate in the fight profited, the casino programs laughed at us, and the GPWA looked like a powerless group of hypocrites.
Originally posted by Dominique
There was nothing wrong with the Montreal event…(except)…that Gator (scumware) as scheduled to speak at the affiliate portion of the conference.True… Montreal was fun… and I met Barbara Walters!!! (Seriously, I did!)
Originally posted by Dominique
It (the alternate event) brought a lot of people to Montreal who would not have come otherwise…True true… but I don’t think many affiliates attend GIGSE anyway.. and the ones who do are SuperAff’s who have their way paid. I could afford the $1,000 admission, but there are many better things to spend a grand on. đ
At any rate, it’s moot and past us all now. This industry changes so much yer-to-year that those who were not around GPWA at that time can’t really understand what the attitude was then.
Originally posted by Dominique
As far as flames and feuds – they have no place in a professional community…I have been as guilty as anyone in the past… đź maybe more so!
So, Dom dear, we all live and learn!
Originally posted by Dominique
I think that an association is supposed to diseminate information to it’s members as priority, and recommend actions only if necessary.That’s exactly how I feel. Because when it comes right down to it, it’s none of my business who you promote or how you do it. That said, it’s the irresponsible webmasters out there who help create many of the problems other webmasters, players and casinos have to deal with.
However, even Casinomeister (who has huge brass b@ll$) doesn’t list “rogue portals”… Maybe he should… or maybe players are smart enough to see that there are good portals and bad ones… just like everything else…
Sorry to ramble!
Odd things = sterile tone = decide for themselves = NOTHING is going to change!
What this industry needs and has needed for a long time is a show of affiliate solidarity. We need to be a unified front â one that will stand up for what is right and fiercely fight any and all injustices! Without a reputable and respected watch dog site affiliates will always be subjected to unfair treatment.
With all due respect an individual or small group of a few have little if any chance against the big guy. A year or so ago we had a group that was on its way to becoming this unified group, but a few inexperienced and greedy individuals failed to see its full potential as a sanctioning body. Today, no group and/or site embody a collaborative unity and consequently âodd thingsâ are increasingly going unchecked, unchallenged, and unfixed!
It is my belief that the longer you permit someone to take advantage of you and/or get away with injustice the more difficult it will be to correct the problem in the future. If as a whole we do not fight back against such atrocity then we as individuals are destined in the long run to fail.
It is imperative that we unite and put partisanship aside for the betterment of our industry as a whole. To not do so – can and will – result in continued unfairness, mediocrity, and eventual extinction.
I surmise that the saying âTogether we stand, Divided we fallâ ⊠is not only a truth, but moreover a call to battle. Its time to get down and dirty – clean up and take out the trash.
Duplicate?
I didnât want my post swept aside …
Your rebuttal to my post was that – we want to avoid another GPWA – and that we have to do things professionally.
krystal quickly responded yah I agree with that … seemingly disrespecting my post.
WELL DUH !!!
No one disrespected you or your post.
I thought I made a very clear, pointed reply to your valid concerns.
Sorry if you don’t agree with my approach to doing things.
“I thought I made a very clear, pointed reply to your valid concerns.”
IMHO all you said was we need to do things in a “professional manner” – and to avoid another gpwa. (Ive read it again – I still think thats all you said – maybe I missed something?)
I have PMd you a response to “… my approach to doing things.”
I reckon my call to battle and my obvious urgency is caused by the preliminary results of my independent testing.
I now have 5 phases of comprehensive testing planned – Each phase has unique parts and sections. I plan on presenting my results in a detailed report when testing is completed.
BUT regardless of the results – IF we are not UNITED in the long run nothing will change – I mean come on – monster affiliates already making good money could careless if joe schmo will get screwed over next month!
Thats a problem in my eyes – even if I do make good money. I want this industry to be fair for each and every webmaster!
Without a reputable watch-dog site – the odd things will continue to run rampant!
Originally posted by arkyt IMHO all you said was we need to do things in a “professional manner” – and to avoid another gpwa. (Ive read it again – I still think thats all you said – maybe I missed something?)
What I said was:
1) I agree that we need unity… “To grow into an association of webmasters that produce results, we not only have to be united…” – and – “You want to help build a united front? Help me, then!”
2) That to build the type of association you seek is not such a simple task… “I hope that the APCW will eventually be able to pull weight for webmasters. But to do that…takes dicipline.” – and – “…one cannot just create a truly respected and powerful organization in a few months…”
3) That this organization should earn respect through it’s actions and words, not just because it conducts “tests”… “…it must be done properly so you don’t throw out the baby with the bath water…” – and – “…(to) produce results, we not only have to be united, but professional in speech and demenor.” – and – “We need to be sure a programs really is cheating us before we…can lay blame. To throw out conjecture and speculation can actually result in implosion…. “
4) That I wanted to help you out however I could… “If it takes getting involved then let’s go!” – and – “…if I catch a program dead-to-rights cheating you can bet … I would inform every member and post in forums.”
5) And I summed it all up with… “In time, I hope I can build this into a powerful tool for us.”
I am really sorry if all you got from my post was “let’s be professional”.
I fully believe you agreed with most if not all of my concerns â not on account of ego, but rather the statement(s) basis in principle.
I too believe your interpretation of what you thought you were saying is honest and sincere. However if you read your post and your ârevisitâ carefully you will see some key phrases âhelp meâ , âthe APCW willâ , âI would informâ , âhope I can buildâ
You cant do it alone … we dont want another GPWA.
As I told you â I have no reason to quarrel with you and thus I will not. I will however continue to speak my mind when I believe I have something to say.
Best of luck to you and your venture.
Originally posted by arkyt
…if you read your post and your ârevisitâ carefully you will see some key phrases âhelp meâ , âthe APCW willâ , âI would informâ , âhope I can buildâWell, of course I did. You guys are talking about doing something I am already trying to do. This was an idea of mine well over a year ago, and it’s massive work to do this on top of running several portals… and in addition to my other ventures and family.
It’s not easy work, especially when you have to take such great precautions to ensure accuracy and fairness to both webmasters and casinos. There is a huge responsibility to my webmaster members to get all the data correct, including audits, and to make certain it’s done right. they will base marketing decisions on this data, and could even drop programs based on the information I discover and/or compile… that’s a huge responsibility.
Also, if APCW becomes strong enough to say “Casino A is shaving” and it hurts their business, I better be 100% certain so that I don’t take revenue away from a reputable site because of my error. In other words, I must make damn sure I have evey “i” dotted, every “t” crossed, and be able to solidly back-up my claim with unquestionable facts.
What if APCW was that strong… and was wrong about a casino it claimed cheated? What if something got missed? I just feel a heavy burden to report facts… all facts… and let webmasters decide for themselves.
It just seems silly to me to go on about how we need “testing” when I am doing that right now… and when you have never joined APCW to give it a try… and when you’ve never said “hey I like your concept, but I think it could be done in a more effective way”.
You cant do it alone … we dont want another GPWA.
I’m not trying to do it alone, but it’s work that I can’t afford to outsource right now. And it’s not fair to ask for volunteers when I get paid to run the site.
And as far as any GPWA / APCW leadership comparisons, well, lets look:
1) No front page links on APCW to ANY of my sites… in fact, my sites are only listed on the membership roster, alphabetically with everyone elses.
2) My title is “administrator” because that’s what I do. Every outgoing email from APCW reads “J.Todd ~ APCW Admin”. Not ‘President’ or ‘CEO’ or ‘Founder’ or any other power trip title.
3) On the FAQ page, I clearly state why I call it an “association”… and that’s it’s not an association as defined by law.
4) I have never even tried to hide the fact that it makes money, or even what is charged. Want to know what it makes me? Just go add it up. The monthly profit is less that most affiliate programs pay me.
5) I made an extensive FAQ’s page, clearly stating that APCW is not designed to dictate to webmasters how to conduct their business. Funny… at the time I wrote that I though that would be a good thing!
=========================================
I guess the long & short of it is this: Try as you may to do the best you can, you really can’t please everyone…
So I’ve said it before and I say it again: APCW is a service… If you see a value in that service then join… If not, don’t join and that’s fine too. It’s just a business, not personal.
I believe, however, that you may want an association that is a bit more personal… more aggressive… more confrontational. I think that’s a short sighted approach to the issue of acheiving long-term effectiveness in this industry…
… but best of luck to you too, friend.
Disagreements aside, I have to say that, much to my surprise, I have met some of the nicest people in the forum. I don’t know what I expected gambling webmasters to be like, but I didn’t think it would be such a great group of people!
Now, a number of us have been privately testing casino programs.
This is not intended as an afront to APCW – there are many affiliate programs not members there and webmasters are a unique bunch – independent, intelligent and are more often than not the kind of folks who prefer to do things themselves, rather than rely on someone else to tell them what’s what.
If the very existence of APCW is going to hinder independent other efforts to evaluate affiliate programs, then what?
What Arkyt is trying to get through to us is that we need to cooperate with each other. For gawds sake we’re all on the same team here. Lets act like it!
And, yes we want to be professional, accurate, and want to avoid accusing any program of fraudulent activity because they had a network fart or something which skewed the stats for one hour on the day it was tested.
Who said we weren’t being professional? Do we strike anyone of being a group of boisterous, disorderly, rowdy, trouble-making morons?
Another point: All the testing in the world isn’t going to do any of us a damn bit of good if we don’t stick together and force wayward programs to clean up their act!
I’ve stayed up too late and rambled on too long, but this thread was beginning to smell; l’odeur de Carly.
One word comes to mind….
Xanax
Lets stop throwing rocks at each other and get back to “testing”
This is the private forums so I will let you guys have free reign in your posts. But I really wish we would leave GPWA alone and in the past where it belongs.
GPWA started out as a great idea and a lot of us put a lot of time and work into it. Its easy to be bitter about the way it ended, but it’s really time to move on. Shit happens. Nothing that involves people will ever be perfect. Circumstances and wrong decisions derailed a generally sound idea. Nothing is to be gained by dwelling on this and I think its best to let it go.
Arkyt I think Integrity is to be commended for doing one thing many other critics are unwilling to do.
HE GOT OUT OF HIS ARMCHAIR AND DID SOMETHING. He’s making an honest attempt to address the very issues you guys are discussing and he’s doing his best to inject a professional approach to testing.
I am not saying you do not make valid points. But, valid points without real action amount to mental masturbation. It makes one feel great to ponder fine ideas, but an ounce of action outweighs a ton of fine ideas.
Instead of critiquing everything why not jump on the bandwagon and help APCW develop into a testing bed that meets everyones needs. It may not match 100% with your vision of exactly how things should be done. But it may help a lot more then rhetoric and screaming in the night.
If you cant get behind APCW create an alternative for people and it will either be embraced for its merit or rejected for failing meet others vision of what is needed.
I have no problem with you guys running independent tests and reporting on it here in private.
But you may want to consider using the APCW framework as its already created and running (no use reinventing the wheel) and THEN discussing the results here in private where no one is offended and you can take the gloves off and wallop any suspect programs (hopefully ubershavers like Money Mechanic)
My two cents.
PS: I was total agreement with the scumware war waged by GPWA and the alternate event in Montreal. Rivercities represents Casino Owners NOT affiliates and that’s where their bread is buttered. They had BALLS THE SIZE OF WATERMELLONS for booking Gator to appear at an affiliate event and they DESERVED the boycott.
If Rivercities still has bad feelings for affiliates standing up against scumware then I say FUCK THEM! Heres a quote for Sue Schneider “Kiss my ass scum queen!”
:bigsmile:
