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I guess the sun rises in the west along with the greenback. The way I aquire traffic matters to me.
The means using blackhatter tricks does not justify the end. Going around deceiving people I would consider be highly immoral. Therefore in this instance the end justifies the means. I quess going around and killing ten ten people would justify your end.
Blackhatters are morally bankrupted group of people that do not conform to morality. The way we govern ourselves in the framework of a ulitarian society has everything to do with morality.
This is more of a philos sophia topic. I conform the means justify the end. greek39
Greek, do try to remember I’m not actually a blackhatter
I’m just a guy like the rest of us trying to make a living and like the rest of us I didn’t start a casino site to somehow uphold the moral fabric of internet and nor did you. That doesn’t make me or any of us evil. Greek, you aspire to be white and saint-like, I think that’s just egotistical nonsense – I am neither white nor black I’m simply a shade of grey, like a regular guy you meet. If anything I’m more honest than you.
The founding fathers who played a major role in building the internet I say are not pleased….
I quess going around and killing ten ten people would justify your end.
Come on, get real. :slapface:
The blackhatters have found a loophole of getting traffic quickly – you can either resent them for it or give them respect. I just happen to respect people who beat the system.
IMO it’s google’s fault that they ban the wrong sites with their duplicate content filters. Surely it can’t be rocket science to work out which site produced the original content.
SI lets not make this a personal issue and I dont want to see insults hurled at Greek.
Most of us dont have any ambiguity about Blackhat SEO techniques which have caused us harm in the search engines and which literally steal food from the plates of our children. I do NOT respect anyone who steals, quite the opposite. Nor do I admire their cleverness or wish that I had emulated them.
I would rather earn 10 honest dollars then a million dirty ones.
Everyone is gray to some extent as you say, but the difference between good and evil in this business is the limits we set on ourselves in what we will and will not do for a buck.
I believe you are following the right course in developing your own materials and striving to create a content rich site for your visitors. YOU and the webmasters like you are the ones we need to appreciate and applaud. Not some useless and parasitic dreg who wants to make a living out of stealing the hard work of others or finding loop holes within the system that allow them to do it.
Appologies if i came across too harsh – it wasn’t intended that way
I just wanted the debate to stay grounded without the moral element getting over top.
We all want a situtation where the people with the best content get the traffic, no one is going to argue with that. My point is that we shouldn’t lose sight that our end goal is traffic not content.
hopefully the two go hand in hand – but as the blackhatter have shown this isn’t always the case.
Since I have read this article and following this thread, I have decided to learn all I can about black hats and their tactics.
Whoever said “Ignorance was Bliss” got that one right! What an eye opener.
I have searched for “counter measures” for these tactics but have found that maybe learning how to use these tactics may be the best way to stop them.
I agree with the Professor here;
Everyone is gray to some extent as you say, but the difference between good and evil in this business is the limits we set on ourselves in what we will and will not do for a buck.
Thats my personal opinion and tend to deal with most things that way. A buck is only a buck, no need to compromise for it.
The truth is, there are short cuts out there and people will use them. We can fight them on this level and to be honest, will never make a dent as long as the 888.com’s are out there turning a blind eye.
I applaud Greek and his efforts with 888.com, and their silence has spoken volumes, and though I do not share Si’s point of view, it does go to show that both sides of this issue have many supporters.
Okay si you think blackhatters have the upper hand in creating loopholes. Visit google type in Jargon first result. Visit Eric’s home page and take a look around for a while. After your done ask yourself do these people have the talent or capcity to shut down any blackhatter group forum or otherwise? what would they think of your posts?
Go there and learn a few things. No insult intended but get the full story not just a chapter. greek39
Okay si you think blackhatters have the upper hand in creating loopholes. Visit google type in Jargon first result. Visit Eric’s home page and take a look around for a while. After your done ask yourself do these people have the talent or capcity to shut down any blackhatter group forum or otherwise? what would they think of your posts?
Sorry greek you’ve lost me…
are you implying that some bunch of hackers are going to save our skins from the blackhatters? :hmmm:
I expected you wouldn’t understand, most people don’t. The people who reside in the Jargon files are the people who made the internet workable. People who did work on programing languages like unix, linux, c, object oriented programing, dos, ect..
Some of the people in Jargon now hold jobs at Google, Yahoo, Msn and several other search engines. The term open source is a Jargon phrase. Bill Gates is in the Jargon files so are a few of my friends.
Hackers are the ones who gave you a workable PC, and you talk about a group of idiots out dooking us, complete nonsense. Some members at Jargon do not like to see their hard work being exploited by a couple of bandits called blackhatters or malicious hackers.
Did you bother to visit Eric’s Page and his view on scrapers? He says this “I will reach into my moniter and rip the fucken site out”
Read some more because this is the fate of the blackhatter community coming soon. I do not know anybody who processes more talent than the fellows who reside in the Jargon files.greek39
So you’re saying YES!
For when the forces of evil overcome the search engines, the Jargon force will return and light our darkest hour.
Please take it in good humour :bigsmile: , actually what you’re saying is the Google engineers are working on it, well god speed to them.
Having followed this thread with some interest, I have an opinion at this point.
The Jargon folks are some of the pioneers, no question. They are current industry leaders and definitely influential – I do enjoy and have used the open source dev model before.
But I think the bigger issue is what black hat people people represent. In this particular case (our industry), it is the theft of content and abuse of certain loopholes. Greek, I agree that this will be looked at more severely in the coming months – possibly shut down, but I don’t know enough about what has to happen to comment on that. Si, I believe that you have some valid points with your, “let’s not lose sight of the fact that we are all after traffic and eventually a buck” mentality. I can see where the disconnect is and why the disagreement started.
I actually want to remind people that at the end of the day, the black hatters (if or when they get shut down) will be replaced with the next generation of guerilla computer types – it is the natural instinct of people like this to look for challenges in terms of their skills, finding loopholes, bucking the system. That is, in fact, what caused the jargon folks to get their momentum.
In our business, there’s a ton of money to be made, with relative ease. I am not saying we don’t work hard, but the returns are huge. People who apply their hacking skills to the problems will generally reflect the evil side of things. The fact that there exists so much money is the reason some people are attracted to the challenge in the first place. It’s kinda like the argument I have heard for scamming insurance – someone’s gonna do it, and there’s money there anyhow …..
I, personally, see a difference in the levels of grey discussed here. There are loopholes that don’t damage individuals here and there are direct attacks on people’s livelihoods.
I am not supporting anything remotely black, or even dark grey, it’s just that I find it interesting that we are concentrating so hard on this generation of evil hacker types when the next group will be just as annoying, damaging and infuriating. I think we just persevere and keep rolling along until the next headache :banger:
That’s my 0.02
Jargon built Google, still not understanding. Without the people at jargon there would be no Google because there would be no Linux. Read, learn and understand then formulate opinions. greek39
I hate this topic, the internet was built quite sometime ago. The language first produced can never change nor be modified, it is constant. So unless you master everything from the beginning a blackhatter has zero power over a master. I do wish do expand on this further because you wouldn’t understand.greek39
Condoning blackhat techniques is like saying its okay to break into someones home and steal their possessions. But it happens. And sometimes they get caught. Its the risk these thieves take knowing that everyone will turn on them given half a chance.
Google Spam reports, public “outings” and any security measures is about the best we can do. However, casino affiliate programs can rip the heart out of them if they want to. A nice central database of known gambling black-hatters sounds like a plan. Though as pointed out re. 888, do enough of the programs WANT to stop them?
To be fair, a number of the programs wouldn’t actually recognise black-hat so would rely on us. We ought to have a CAP “Neighbourhood Watch” group, affiliates trusted by the aff progs and other affiliates who could update the central database knowing that the aff progs would take action. 2 strikes and you’re in the database…get the jist.
Incidentally, so much talk of 888 p*ssing everyone off with their stand-off stance on this. But no-one has suggested removing them in protest or taking similar actions like against Party recently, or Fortune, ReferBack et al last year.
Thoughts?
I would love to expand on several topics, but can’t I take sworn oaths very seriously. But the 888.com thing will be coming to a satisfactory conclusion soon, I hope. greek39
I am delighted to see the conversation here, and that so many of you have actually gone and learned about it. That is why I posted the links.
Blackhat as it is seen today will be eradicated, you know it and they know it.
Even if you don’t have any problem with the lack of morality of it, the fact that it can only be short lived should convince you to stick to working with the search engines, not against them.
Will something else come along to trip us up? Of course.
It will never stop. But if we stick together and combat the hurdles others build for us, we wll keep moving on ahead as we have all these years, while they fall by the wayside.
