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I’m sure Lou isn’t thinking of his fees and hopefully he will send a message that we need a bit more from BCP .Why is this rule so important to them?If somebody has spent years promoting them ,then decides to retire and sell their business they should get LIFETIME income .If everybody else decided to make up these rules none of us would ever be able to retire as we would have to keep these players flowing .I guess i better recruit my 5 year old now to continue the business – NOT!
This kind of conduct is why Focus on the Family and other anti-online gambling activists see our industry as shady.
Hi all,
yes agree a big thank you to Prof … he did better than we had … and he doesn’t make the rules .. only tries to make them work.
And I think most agree.
That said … ya we can’t have retro. its must.
If somebody has spent years promoting them ,then decides to retire and sell their business they should get LIFETIME income
that is a basic term for a good affiliate program, any other form is not for long term promotion. If there are such a restriction in place, you can bet on it that more non affiliate friendly terms will be added, not now, but in 1-10+ years.
I appreciate the efforts made by Lou and Warren too.
Let me just say this, I have always enjoyed, and appreciate Jeff and Frederick as well.On the subject of making a negative changes to Affiliate’s Agreements, I too feel that this kind change should never be Retroactive. Changes going forward for new affiliates are fine.
In all the posts I just read here, I didn’t see one that addresses the larger picture.
Webmasters promote different ways, and have to constantly change their strategy depending on how well a certain casino does for them.As we have seen for years, some people seem to do well with Microgaming Casinos and not be able to convert RTG’s worth a damn, OR Vise Versa.
Even within a given brand, one webmaster might do well at most Microgamings,{for example}, but can’t get conversions at a few of them that other webmasters seem to RAVE about.
It’s a strange phenomena, but is a fact that we have seen for years.
At the same time,….and for a fact,…. some casinos spend more money to have people to specifically work with conversions, are well trained, and simply do a better job at maximizing the leads the affiliates send them.Some programs spend more dollars on eye popping, professional creatives, while others just offer the basics.
Some places call a sign up that hasn’t deposited and works with them to find a solution that will work for them.
So the bottom line is that if the traffic is there, but the conversions aren’t, it isn’t ALL the affiliate’s fault.In the larger picture of this issue was UIEGA. There probably would not be a Best Casino Partner using Vegas Technology software had this not passed.
Many of us were fiercely LOYAL to the Casino Blasters Program, and were able to convert those brands, and the Playtech Software fine. The funding solutions were plentiful, and it’s IMPORTANT to remember, a lot of people were largely focused on U.S. Traffic at that time.
While they did a fabulous job of navigating thru the pitfalls of UIEGA to retain some of the U.S. Players we had all built up at Casino Blasters,….that was also clearly to their benefit as well. It was as a partnership should be, IMO.
A Win/Win situation for them and the Affiliates.That said, in the larger picture again, I think everyone needs to recognize that the Vegas Technology Software might not convert for EVERYONE as well as the Playtech Software did.
BCP does not appear, {at least on the website}, to offer the better funding solutions that are available for U.S. Players at this time.IE: Neteller, Click2Pay, and Solid Prepaid Debit are the only three listed.
While there may be more available, and perhaps they even call the players that do sign up, IF THE PLAYER DOSEN’T bother to sign up because they don’t see QuickTender, or some of the other popular U.S. solutions, you’ll not have their phone number to follow up on to generate the conversion!!!
This could easily kill the smaller Webmaster that has largely U.S. Traffic, and needs the casino to have U.S. Targeted Funding solutions and TARGETED Creatives for U.S. Players as well.And lastly in the larger picture, not ALL Webmasters are FRONT LINE Marketers.
Some people are marketing heavily on the Sub Affiliate/Tiered Concept.
As I recall, many years ago, this was exactly how Lou got started!
In fact, CAP is the product of that marketing concept.
While Lou is probably strong on the front line NOW,…he began with the Tiered marketing Strategy.So people that use this strategy are totally screwed under these proposed changes.
Especially those that created decent downlines at Casino Blasters prior to the UIEGA Crisis.
These people might not be able to meet a PLAYER quota, not to mention smaller affiliates. All that work is now at BCP, and they would expect to be paid for all the Tiered Marketing they did at Blasters. And so they should expect that.It would Not be for lack of effort, but because that isn’t what they do, and the smaller Front Line Marketers might not be able to send enough traffic if the casinos don’t convert well for them.
Additionally, there have been many times over the years when a casino stopped converting well, so I had to back them off and make some changes for my own self preservation.
In those cases, I NEVER dropped any casino, but changed focus for a while to Sub Affiliate Marketing on that unit. After 6 months or so, I switch it back around, ETC, ETC.Everyone needs to understand that Affiliates are constantly having to adjust, shift gears, and make some temporary changes to preserve their own business. It usually isn’t done out of spite, or with the intention of NEVER putting a place back in the upper fold.
Just like a Casino site, we have to keep fresh material out there for the Players that use out portals.
After some time passes and we get new users to our sites, then we can put your casinos back in the prime positions and get some results.In closing, Affiliates should not have to worry about getting commissions cut back or Frozen for the hard work of they did for you in the past.
In most cases, we are just trying to keep ourselves in the game so we can come back to you in a few months, and be productive again.
Sometimes we actually have to reduce exposure so we can be around to send you business in the FUTURE, and for the LONG HAUL!A long and Productive Future is Win/Win for both of us.
Part of making that Win/Win happen, and ensuring that we can have that kind of relationship for the future is paying us fair and square for the good work and success we had and agreed to in the past.
Should you be expected to pay when someone totally DROPS you? No, I’m not saying that either.
I am saying that you need to understand the PLIGHT of the Affiliate better, recognize that there will be ups and downs over the years, and not penalize webmasters that are sending traffic, and making the effort. You should not try to micro manage affiliates with player quotas because in the end, the Webmaster knows what will work best for him/her, and what’s best for you as it pertains to THEIR site.The Player Quota thing needs to go away, accounts should NEVER be frozen, and ALL earned commissions, Front Line and Tiered, should be paid as agreed.
Sorry this was so long, however, I felt it was important to show Fred and Jeff the larger picture from the Affiliate side of this issue.
Fred and Jeff, please don’t take offense, but if you are just wanting to ensure traffic, let’s come up with a plan that meets your needs on that concern without putting the affiliates future in jeopardy by having Player Quotas.Thanks,
Nick@The_CPA 179235 wrote:
Sorry this was so long, however, I felt it was important to show Fred and Jeff the larger picture from the Affiliate side of this issue.
Excellent post CPA!
It may be long, but IT’S RIGHT ON!
heheI would like to make a few points here, not just regarding BCP, but in general.
1. Online gambling retention is extremely low, period. Maybe 1 out of 1,000 players will stay active with an online casino for more than 1 year. So if you think you will retire off of a player base, I want to smoke some of what you are smoking.
2. If you cannot bring 1 player in 3 months, for whatever reason, keep your day job. You are obviously doing “this online gambling thing” as a hobby. If not – remember you run a business, not a charity. If you have a mom and pop store and you get ill, you cannot expect to retain your revenue stream – get Aflac or something.
3. I personally don’t care much about “newbies”. Again, for some of us this is a business, not a hobby. If you decide to enter a business without knowing anything – it’s your own fault if you fail.
4. I would love to see a little stricter T&Cs from all programs. This would be great as it will weed out some of the jokers and spammers. It may make competition a little more intense between big affiliates, but it will ultimatelly lead to increase in quality.
5. As far as BCP and CAP are concerned, I think they should be certified. This is how CAP makes money and this time Lou had to work hard – I think he deserves to get paid. If you didn’t know that CAP certified programs are ads, I refer you to point 3 above. I don’t pick who I advertise from CAP, but I think the communication channel could be valuable (if the aff program keeps up with it).
I think CPA just about summed up how we all feel in regards to this issue, well said.
@Stupid 179239 wrote:
1. Online gambling retention is extremely low, period. Maybe 1 out of 1,000 players will stay active with an online casino for more than 1 year. So if you think you will retire off of a player base, I want to smoke some of what you are smoking.
Players move around and come back to the same casino sporadically. Some of mine for years. If they don’t, there is something wrong with retention.
@Stupid 179239 wrote:
2. If you cannot bring 1 player in 3 months, for whatever reason, keep your day job. You are obviously doing “this online gambling thing” as a hobby. If not – remember you run a business, not a charity.
If I were to give BCP top spots unconditionally they would never complain and always get players. But – the advertiser does not run the magazine. The magazine will always make decisions based on profitability, not on what one advertiser wants. BCP is one of maybe 100 casinos on my site and they would be positioned according to profitability. But not if they break contracts, the magazine will not continue to do buiness with an advertiser who doesn’t pay according to contract.
@Stupid 179239 wrote:
3. I personally don’t care much about “newbies”. Again, for some of us this is a business, not a hobby. If you decide to enter a business without knowing anything – it’s your own fault if you fail.
I do care about newbies. I didn’t know anything when I entered this business. I am perfectly willing to share, there is room for all of us in this industry and numbers only make us stronger.
@Stupid 179239 wrote:
4. I would love to see a little stricter T&Cs from all programs. This would be great as it will weed out some of the jokers and spammers. It may make competition a little more intense between big affiliates, but it will ultimatelly lead to increase in quality.
Weeding out spammers is great. But – I choose to make my living in this industry. If the industry deteriorates into a place where broken contracts are common and tolerated, I will go make my living someplace else. Contracts are the backbone of any type of business deal, and they must be adhered to. If contracts are not honored, all you have is a sleezy mess.
@Stupid 179239 wrote:
5. As far as BCP and CAP are concerned, I think they should be certified. This is how CAP makes money and this time Lou had to work hard – I think he deserves to get paid. If you didn’t know that CAP certified programs are ads, I refer you to point 3 above. I don’t pick who I advertise from CAP, but I think the communication channel could be valuable (if the aff program keeps up with it).
Lou did work hard and he does deserve to get paid. I do use CAP as a guideline along with my own experience, and I do click on CAP ads to support the community. CAP has to be profitable like any other business, but it also has a mission and Lou has always kept that in view. CAP is an affiliate community. We support each other and help each other, and in adversity we stick together. We stick up for each other when the chips fall. I have been loyal to CAP since it’s inception, when it was just a fairly quiet message board, and that is why. I have given countless hours of my time to CAP, and CAP has given me a voice and has been instrumental in keeping the industry clean and a pleasure to do business in.
A few years ago we fought long and hard because some programs changed T&Cs retroactively. Some programs took months to see that they would lose and not profit as a result of such behavior. But every single one came around and changed things back for excisiting affiliates. Without CAP, without a strong community, we would be screwed.
No offense to you, but I found quite a bit of that to be offensive, short sighted, and narrow minded, Mr. S.
Maybe 1 out of 1,000 players will stay active with an online casino for more than 1 year.
Sounds a bit low, IMO, but in unlikely event that figure is correct, it demonstates just HOW much work goes into finding and retaining good players.
As such, those efforts need to be compensated according to the terms agreed to.
It doesn’t matter how Big of an Affiliate you are, we work on a Value for Value pay system, so the amount you get is supposed to be commensurate with whatever the results are, regardless of whether you have 1 Player or 1000 players.If you cannot bring 1 player in 3 months, for whatever reason, keep your day job. You are obviously doing “this online gambling thing” as a hobby.
Most people I know started off small, and built up. Not many had the luxury of jumping into this FULL Time.
I started small, Lou did, Dom did, The Captain did, and I can name tons of other that did too.
Many of them in fact did, and still do have day jobs while they work very hard to grow their sites.
Many of those guys that started out part time and small are significant webmasters today, so that process works QUITE WELL.I personally don’t care much about “newbies”. Again, for some of us this is a business, not a hobby.
The strength and future of the Affiliate Industry depends on those Newbies you don’t like.
Many of them become significant as I mentioned above.
Bringing Newbies along has long been the strength of Affiliate Communities just like this one.
It’s a great service to all of the Casino Programs, IMO.This would be great as it will weed out some of the jokers
It may make competition a little more intense between big affiliates
Wow. All pretty offensive comments to many of us out here, but I’ll respect your right to make them.
@Stupid 179239 wrote:
I would like to make a few points here, not just regarding BCP, but in general.
You are the perfect example of why they would even get the crazy idea to begin with. If it works for you then go for it and see how far it gets ya.
I think it’s obvious that everyone is free to make their own business decisions so good luck stupid.
Lou did work hard and he does deserve to get paid. I do use CAP as a guideline along with my own experience, and I do click on CAP ads to support the community. CAP has to be profitable like any other business, but it also has a mission and Lou has always kept that in view. CAP is an affiliate community. We support each other and help each other, and in adversity we stick together. We stick up for each other when the chips fall. I have been loyal to CAP since it’s inception, when it was just a fairly quiet message board, and that is why. I have given countless hours of my time to CAP, and CAP has given me a voice and has been instrumental in keeping the industry clean and a pleasure to do business in.
A few years ago we fought long and hard because some programs changed T&Cs retroactively. Some programs took months to see that they would lose and not profit as a result of such behavior. But every single one came around and changed things back for existing affiliates. Without CAP, without a strong community, we would be screwed.
Very very true! Without CAP we would not be here debating this right now, and hopefully good will come from this thread as it has in the past, and like CPA said most of us built ourselves from the ground up and all the while maintained our INTGRITY.
Let’s not forget that it is not the job of the affiliate to maintain the player base we send to the programs, once we have driven that newbie to the casino it is their job to do good player retention.
Great post CPA!
However:
@The_CPA 179235 wrote:On the subject of making a negative changes to Affiliate’s Agreements, I too feel that this kind change should never be Retroactive. Changes going forward for new affiliates are fine.
I don’t agree with you here, we HAVE TO protect new affiliates too. It can be OK (sometimes) to accept a change when it is not retroactive, but most of the time the changes are so predatory that we need the stand up against the change itself.
These kind of changes that BCP has done – whether they retroactive or not – are damaging for new affiliates as well. These kind of changes will close the doors for new affiliates too, and therefore will damage the industry. I don’t feel better myself just because I am not a newbie and have an account with a given program, so I’m out of the way regarding non-retroactive changes. As Dom said, without new faces in the industry there is no possibility to grow/learn/expand/earn more. We just tighten ourselves up.
@Stupid 179239 wrote:
3. I personally don’t care much about “newbies”. Again, for some of us this is a business, not a hobby. If you decide to enter a business without knowing anything – it’s your own fault if you fail.
You absolutely don’t get what is CAP for. I always admired people who knows everything “out-of-the-box”. I hope you realize that with these kind of TC that BCP has now and imagine other programs following this trend then not many new affiliates will enter this industry.
If you don’t see the problem with this, then I think you need to learn a lot.
@Stupid 179239 wrote:
Again, for some of us this is a business, not a hobby. If you decide to enter a business without knowing anything – it’s your own fault if you fail.
What I don’t follow is how, as a businessman, you’re saying you’re happy for people that you contract with to change the terms of your contract retroactively without your agreement. Surely there is no better recipe for the failure you mention, so I have to ask…why?
I don’t agree with you here, we HAVE TO protect new affiliates too
Certainly I agree with that 100%.
At the same time, I would never try to control the way a program wants to build their own future going forward, any more than I want them to control mine,…. which is pretty much what this proposed change in our agreements is doing.
We should be expected to keep our agreements, and so should the programs.
Going forward with terms changes is strictly their business as long as they are true to their previous agreements with us. JMO.
If BCP and Blasters are concerned that people are cutting them back on the traffic, then we need to discuss that concern, why it’s happening, and come up with something that BOTH SIDES of this issue can at least be OK with.
That said, Player quotas are not the answer, and should not be one of the acceptable solutions to the traffic concerns. JMO
