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well the thing is C:
is that if you’re making decent money with a program…. you don’t tend to doubt them as much.
when there’s doubt…. it opens up what may be the reasons. the most likely reason is you’re being cheated.
I been around way too damn long not to know this.
yes …. its open to risk. open to mistake. but in the end….. it tells the tale.
frankly … we don’t give a damn who’s to blame. whether its mistake. incompetence .. or cheating. we have families to support. excuses don’t pay the piper. does it?
I’m more skeptical of a program not crediting a sub-affiliate signup. I’d be interested in hearing anybody’s thoughts on this
what’s the difference? subs …..unless you’re like Lou …. won’t ever make the kind of money you can make promoting yourself.
I appreciate your thoughts…. but that’s the truth. I have a few under me. some make me wish I was in their position. but my take…… is so little …. its not even close.
and these are people that make a lot more than myself.
there ARE a lot of holes in my approach….. but in the end…. the end justifies the means. I don’t have any attraction to promoting a place that proves to me that they are unable to provide accurate stats.
as for clearing cookies etc …. ya… that can happen…. but if you explain it right …. the player/surfer will make sure they DON’T clear cookies because they want credit for having signed up under a credible casino portal that can use its much higher representive power to make sure they are paid when they win.
there’s no getting around it. the way the aff program is set up …..provides us (affs) with this …. and its best to just do the right thing.
perhaps it would require a claim by more than one player to reduce the likelihood of error…
@casinotime 136272 wrote:
perhaps it would require a claim by more than one player to reduce the likelihood of error…
I agree.
As far as I know, there actually IS no perfect tracking system, there is a small percentage of errors in all of them.
It does take more than one test to be able to say accurately that a program cheats.
Shaving on 2nd tier affiliates is SO rampant that its impossible to earn really significant income. I have programs that I work with where I have sent 3000+ sub affiliates, many of them really strong affiliates too, and they supposedly generate under $200 a month in revenue!
For an actual example BB1 here is your favorite Microgaming Program this month:
828 Sub Affiliates Total income $251.27
And to be honest they are one of the better 2nd tier incomes I see!
It’s not uncommon to get totally blanked on referred affiliates.
JayTodd? ??
I will point out that i have an account at Europartners, that via just 1 or two sub affiliates generates 100’s a month, sometimes over $1000. Also had account that did 100’s in 2nd Tier at Vegas Partners, before change in US law.
There are 2 programs (mgs) that i’ve been promoting them on my webmaster pages since summer 2001 and they generate enough 2nd teir commission, that the commission combined with $3, will buy you a coffee at starbucks.
Whatever the issues with proving, BB1 you’ve got a good idea. The deal “$300 for proof”, gives you the right to reject an submission/acusation that seems fraudulent. Give em Hell!
thanks to all,
here’s the thing. at one time …. most progams didn’t respect affs enough to bother to cheat us in even an intelligent manner.
those days are gone. Now…. I suspect the most prevalent method is to siphone off big players.
hard to catch.
but not impossible. I also figure that my newest approach .. will provide such info.
good luck to programs trying to cheat us. and if you have tracking issues….. then get them fixed!
nobody cries foul until they’ve reached a point way beyond what is logical.
I hope i make my point.
totally agree with your statement. If they cheat us it will be the big players.
As i see it, they could cheat us on the smaller deposits too if they can assume no relationship to player. example you live in US, and a player deposits from Australia or France… etc.
We need to be very careful before pointing our fingers at different affiliate programs and consider these points.
1) Some players see a banner on your site, and instead of clicking in your affiliate link type in the domain. I have seen and heard of this happen.
2) Players will say they signed up with you even though they signed up with another site just to get the money. As mentioned before they will go out of the way to get that money.
3) Players visit many sites and then signup an account. The question is what affiliate gets the credit. The first one? last one who sent the traffic? You need to ask the programs you are with how the cookie tracking works.
4) Affiliate managers can change the tracking if another affiliate calls and gives evidence that they referred someone who is not tracked.
5) Some players call rather than signup online and this results in tracking errors.Some programs do screw affiliates, but for the larger programs it will be a pointless move and too much effort so they generally would not.
Since my main income is derived from affiliate commissions I would like to know if I am getting screwed but I also understand the other side of the spectrum.
well while this idea has its flaws.. its my experience that for the most part players …..least those I have had over the years … are pretty honest.
that this idea will involve knowing about the player having signed up under you .. that it targets the fact of repeat deposits showing up in your account.
again I say you have to explain to the surfer that we as portal owners don’t cost a player anything. that we are their backup with contacts could never have and will go to bat for them if they run into a snotty CS agent who won’t try to accomodate or address their issue. This happens and is IMHO one of the biggest problems in the industry. People have a complaint and go to CS and get nowhere… they don’t know how to get their problem past this person. We can. Therefore there is incentive to make sure they DO follow your links.
I already said that ….. well for instance in the case of Referback which gives credit across the board to the aff first signing the player at any of their properties …. that if you have an issue and then contact the aff manager and are told the player is already tracked to say Simon. Well I’ll be contacting you sir to ask if you are getting credit for the deposits I have been shown proof of: if you say no… then I’m out $300 but I also still learn not to trust a program that isn’t giving credit for deposits.
and I helped someone else.
Its all in how you explain the situation to surfers. I’ve found an honest truthful approach is best. Because truth is … its much smarter to sign up thru a reputable portal than to go it alone thru some search engine.
I’ve made a fair living the last 7 years going this route.
Sometime after the first I’ll have this approach written up and will post it here.
in the end: I will have power over what I think is deserving in paying the bounty. I have run a guarantee for years and only ever paid out 3 times … and 2 of those were because of a late payment situation and I didn’t want to see a player dis-satisfied … and even though the player did eventually get paid …. I let them keep the money I had sent.
I still talk regularly with this player. I’m certain i’ve made my money back.
what I’m asking of players is time consuming and therefore if it ever reveals there is cheating/tracking issues ….. which will be strictly tracking deposits because you’ll know off the bat about if the sign up showed up .. so signups really won’t be an issue…. that part will take care of itself if you follow me: then they deserve to be paid for their troubles.
and like I said… $300 is cheap to get rid of some place that is screwing you around for whatever reason.
I go further to point out a fact most gambling affs already know. Its really easy to rack up some amounts when you gamble.
take out the bonus chasers …. who won’t have any deposits to show you anyway .. or certainly not enough to likely make a differnce in being able to discern in most program stats … and you’re talking about people who are making deposits large enough to merit knowing what the hell is going on?
there’s going to be a lot of angles I’m going to have to cover. I appreciate the feedback because it helps me to cover these in the terms of the bounty. But i definitely think it is doable.
*Referback was just used as an example and I’m not in any way saying they are cheats or have tracking issues.
I have been reluctant to doing extensive testing out of fear of what I would find. I am afraid I would have next to no one to promote if my choice was to drop the thieves lmao. I don’t know that end of the business at all, but it is my feeling that the way most shaving takes place in this business is with a simple formula. For example, instead of getting 100% of the revenue and signups we generate like we are suppose to, they code it to give us like 60%, 80%, 90%, 95% ect.. I have run several tests in the past and just about all of them failed at one point or another, and this is after buying a brand new computer so that takes out all of the common reasons a referral might not be credited to us. Its just a simple formula built into the tracking program and it adds up to big time money when its done across the board.
This would also explain why so many affiliate managers are so adamant that the stats are 100% correct. As far as they are concerned the stats are in fact correct, they have no reason to think otherwise since the theft is done under the radar. Point being is I think the affiliate managers are the innocent ones in most cases, its actually the top dogs at the program who had this programing done or its the actual software providers themselves that provide the tracking who would rather keep their licensees financially fat so they can pay another $100K next year rather than give it to us. Pretty easy, just make 20% of our referrals house deals. Nothin to it, just a formula in the code. This also make the programs themselves the innocent ones and the actual software providers themselves the thieves.
At any rate, I have learned to be happy with what I get. I obviously keep the ones I have the most faith in at the top, but I don’t rock the boat too much. This is just my gut feeling to how the shaving takes place in this business. We all know its done and in many different ways, this is just how I think the majority is done and its just a feeling folks. I really don’t know that end of the business at all so I could be way off base, but there is an answer for everything, and I think its silly to think that there are so many honest errors in a programing code. Its programmed to do something and it does just that.
Hi Bonus,
well I agree. most aff managers make a commission along with paycheck.
but there also is talk about some siphoning off players to their own benefit.
I suspect this is correct. the people who tell me this … I have faith are very much in the know.
I’m trying to find ways to stop this shit. there’s no reason affs are starting to starve while its pretty obvious to me that gambling is still going on and still strong.
while there may be a % of losses due to deposit issues … how many of you are having trouble depositing?
there are ways. and gamblers will find them.
I think its all about what many of us have always known. some programs just are never happy with how much they make. its time this is stopped.
I have cut back to like 2 sponsors (basically)
now partnering with other affs … i’m being asked to promote others. That’s fine. but they be fair-warned now…. I will be relentlessly on their ass if I catch them cheating me. look for easier prey.
@bb1webs 136324 wrote:
Hi Bonus,
but there also is talk about some siphoning off players to their own benefit.
No doubt this happens. Its a damn shame the greed in this business by certain people, not all.
I have seen other webmasters set up a program like your talking about. Basically, when you sign up and deposit, you email the webmaster your id and they bump you a chip set, $50, entry into a freeroll or something along those lines, but its a pretty smart way to stay right on top of your action and you don’t have to give away the farm. I am going to look at doing this on my big project when that gets off the ground, its smart.
I can certainly appreciate where your coming from and your efforts to work with the most trusted for both players and affiliates. Unfortunately they all have us by the balls for the most part. Although there are certainly some things you can do to protect yourself which you are showing. Good luck.
It is true that there are many variables that may interfere with the webmaster receiving credit for a referral. However, if a certain sponsor is continuosly coming up with reasons as to why so many referrals are going untagged, then that would surely ring alarm bells.
