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You’ve provided 2 possible player types, and acknowledge that they will affect results.
I’ll suggest 5 types – and a typical percentage at a “normal” site.
a ) TESTERS – 50% are players who will deposit a small amount, lose it all quickly and not come back.
b ) BONUS HUNTERS – 25% are players who deposit enough for the bonus for the bonus, and may lose it all, or win a bit, and not come back.
c ) REGULARS – 20% are regular players who will deposit a few hundred, play, withdraw winnings or lose and deposit more, and play for months.
d ) WHALES – 4% Big players who win, lose, win/lose, and eventually blow it all
e ) SMART WHALES – 1% are Big players who know who to win, and will take a profit if they are ahead.Clearly, what your profit looks like will depend on the type of players that your affiliate site attracts, and also on the site that you are promoting.
For example, if you promote bonus amounts heavily, and target sites with high bonuses, then you will attract a lot of B ) BONUS HUNTER type players and may find that your profit percentage is way down. Or if you have a high content site, with reviews of good information, and other articles of value then you MIGHT attract more from groups C-E and get better yield out of your deposits.
So you can see that a “canned formula” does not work the same for each affiliate site / partner program – it will vary according to the differing percentage of players that you send to the site.
An additional factor may also be if you are attracting European / UK players who have access to quick, low cost methds for depositing and withdrawing funds – debit cards and e-wallets. These players are far more likely to deposit and play and then withdraw their remaining balance at the end of each session. They are still valuable players – but completely screw up the deposit stats ratio.
In an attempt to provide answer, I’d say that on “average” about 60% of money deposited is lost at a casino, with 40% returned as either people withdrawing winnings, or withdrawing their remaining balance after having a losing session – but that if you found that YOUR ratio was completely different that I would not be surprised.
Hope that helps you – even a little bit ..
Thank you Gooner!
I did not categorize players that way, but now when I look at my data it makes perfect sense. Since I don’t promote for bonus hunters that percentage is spread over the other categories. It is interesting to see that almost (not quite) every other depositor will be a regular or deposit a decent amount of money. Though most of my regulars are not depositing a few hundred, more like 50-100. But maybe it will be a few hundred in the end with redeposits…we’ll see.
What would you consider a whale…is it in the $1000 or $10 000 range?
Another interesting thing that I have noticed is that most of my players have $0 left on their account, even if they are still logging in and being active. I guess many of these are the quick european players you talk about?
A few of my players are also leaving quite a lot of money on their accounts without being active for up to a month. My affiliate manager told me that is a good sign cause that means they will come back. Is this really the case or do players forget their money on the account every now and then?
/ Tom
Hi Tom,
let’s see if I can suggest possible answers with your questions.
1/ What is a “whale” ?
A whale is just an experienced player that deposits and bets big. Whales go all the way up in size – and I’ve seen a Russian sports punter regularly bet 100K (!!) on a sports event !But a whale is just the name for a player who dominates your stats. Once you get 10-20 players at a site you will recognise that you’re profits/losses come mainly from 1 or 2 main players. When you get 100-200 players then it balances out again – unless you get that Russian guy!
2/ Do players leave sizable balances in accounts?
Well – I do. I have accounts at 10 sites (mainly sports betting) and I keep a 4 figure balance on hand at most sites in order to take advantage of good betting oddss if I find them. Looking at my stats many other players are the same.3/ Active zero balances
Yes – I would expect these are people with access to quick deposit methods – that prefer to keep their cash close. It is a slightly negative issue – because it suggests that they still do not quite “trust” the site – or that the site is not one of their “preferred places to play” yet.It’s good that they come back and play … but it’s bad that they keep going back to zero.
But these views are just one affiliates view (MINE) – I am sure that other readers have different views and experiences – and hopefully they will join in and share their ideas too!
Wow, that russian guy could screw your entire revenue if he’s good. Let’s say your other players have made you quite a good revenue, and then this guy comes in and erases all of that. I hope he’s not into fixed games for your sake
. Very interesting to hear about a whale of that calibre. My biggest whale so far is in the $10 000 range when it comes to total deposits…not for every bet.To continue this interesting discussion:
– Are you only using revenue share? My research tells me that this is the way to go in the long run…cause whenever you get that whale it will be worth it compared to CPA deals.
– What are your experience of striking individual deals with Casinos if your are performing well as an affiliate?
– Since I am just starting out as an affiliate it would also be interesting to know what market to go for next. Now I am only promoting Roulette but want to expand my business in the future. You seem to do well with sports betting. Is that a more lucrative business than poker or slots? Is poker even an option these days or is it to saturated?
It would be really interesting to hear from more people so please join the discussion with your wise words.
1/ Rev-share v CPA.
Rev share only for me – never accepted CPA. As you’ve suggested most of the players are small profits where CPA would be OK – but the whales can be worth many, many times the CPA. MY type of site seems to attract a good share of bigger bettors and rev-share provides some extremely good months.
2/ Channels – Casino v Sports v Poker
I cover sports betting as my preferred option – and that’s personal choice as sports is my passion – and so I can easily provide regular content, reviews and opinions on the subject that interests others.So sports is our main earner, but I suspect that casino has the same potential to earn, and casino may even be slightly easier as it may not need as many regular content updates as others.
Poker? Well poker is very much a sideline for us – only providing 3-5% of revenues. It’s a past-time that is popular, but the rake system means that revenues as a percentage of deposit amounts are much smaller. Additionally, a big portion of poker interest comes from within the US – and the UIGEA restrictions have devastated that market.
3/ Casino products – Blackjack v Roulette v slots
My main interest in casino betting was blackjack – which I think is a natural cross-over for many sports bettors. Roulette never interested my after a quick look at the bets and odds. The bets are always -EV, it’s a loser in the long run.However, I think that the big market is slots. There are so many slots variations now, and movie / tv tie-ins. I even enjoy trying the science fiction ones – and there is a mix of skill, experience and luck that can improve payouts.
4/ Casino Deals –
To be honest – I do not usually try for a super high deal – nor do I chase the programs that offer the highest rates. I only want to work with the BEST programs – and I will make contact and see what we can work out – usually a minimum tier level, cross channel, and removal of quota clauses – but it is important to leave profit in the business for both affiliate and program.When I see new programs offering 50%+ shares then you know it cannot work out well in the long term.
Hi,
I can see you are really good with your estimation. sometimes the bonus hunters are more, it depends on the promotions….
regards Helmut@TheGooner 249975 wrote:
You’ve provided 2 possible player types, and acknowledge that they will affect results.
I’ll suggest 5 types – and a typical percentage at a “normal” site.
a ) TESTERS – 50% are players who will deposit a small amount, lose it all quickly and not come back.
b ) BONUS HUNTERS – 25% are players who deposit enough for the bonus for the bonus, and may lose it all, or win a bit, and not come back.
c ) REGULARS – 20% are regular players who will deposit a few hundred, play, withdraw winnings or lose and deposit more, and play for months.
d ) WHALES – 4% Big players who win, lose, win/lose, and eventually blow it all
e ) SMART WHALES – 1% are Big players who know who to win, and will take a profit if they are ahead.Clearly, what your profit looks like will depend on the type of players that your affiliate site attracts, and also on the site that you are promoting.
For example, if you promote bonus amounts heavily, and target sites with high bonuses, then you will attract a lot of B ) BONUS HUNTER type players and may find that your profit percentage is way down. Or if you have a high content site, with reviews of good information, and other articles of value then you MIGHT attract more from groups C-E and get better yield out of your deposits.
So you can see that a “canned formula” does not work the same for each affiliate site / partner program – it will vary according to the differing percentage of players that you send to the site.
An additional factor may also be if you are attracting European / UK players who have access to quick, low cost methds for depositing and withdrawing funds – debit cards and e-wallets. These players are far more likely to deposit and play and then withdraw their remaining balance at the end of each session. They are still valuable players – but completely screw up the deposit stats ratio.
In an attempt to provide answer, I’d say that on “average” about 60% of money deposited is lost at a casino, with 40% returned as either people withdrawing winnings, or withdrawing their remaining balance after having a losing session – but that if you found that YOUR ratio was completely different that I would not be surprised.
Hope that helps you – even a little bit ..
It was the same for me. Roulette is what I know and love so it was a natural choice to start promoting that. It was a labour of love that changed into a business.
And yes, slots seem to be the thing right now, with potential to grow even more for a long time. I always saw it as a game for older folks, but in recent years it really seem to have catched the eye of the kids as well.
What is your take on promoting Online Wallets like Neteller/Skrill etc. I haven’t really made a dime in several months. I am really thinking of just taking that part away. But it on the other hand it is an interesting thing to promote as:
* The same player can generate 2 revenues
* A player can generate revenue even though he is not playing my casinos…but it feels like most of the players are satisfied with credit card deposits/withdrawals or they already have a virtual wallet. And also, when you finally get a customer it doesn’t seem to generate that much in the end.
Is it worth it?
Wow Gooner, a lot of these were questions I had as well and I really appreciate the amount of time it takes to put all this info down. Thank you very much. I promote bonuses heavily and incorporate reviews as well, although I do believe my site to be above average. Your analysis has much more aged data, and data that has much larger numbers in general making it more mathematically accurate than analyzing my best site.
My point is that I find your numbers to be dead on even with a smaller number of players and in a targeted USA demographic that I have as a comparison. I just wanted to back your post with the fact that I am finding similar traits regarding my players behavior as well.
(edit reason: typo)
@tomand 250035 wrote:
What is your take on promoting Online Wallets like Neteller/Skrill etc. I haven’t really made a dime in several months. I am really thinking of just taking that part away. But it on the other hand it is an interesting thing to promote as:
…
And also, when you finally get a customer it doesn’t seem to generate that much in the end.
Is it worth it?
Short answer ? No. It’s not worth it.
Slightly longer answer …
I use e-wallets all the time. They are great and I have pages recommending them on site with affiliate links. But the thing that makes them great (low fees) is also the thing that means that it’s not a great deal for affiliates.
Moneybookers pays 20% of fees for a year, which is a little low percentage but OK that’s their deal, however, they cap their fees to players at just 0.50 Euros and even if a player makes 10 transactions a month that’s still just 5 euros and only a single euro to the affiliate.
And the one year thing really cuts in. Because it’s likely that the real value is in having the players who have long term accounts – as they are likely to be the active and heavy users.
We still list e-wallets, and recommend them, as a service to players. But in terms of an affiliate revenue stream it’s very small compared to gambling – probably less than 1/10th of 1% of revenue.
:whoa:@muffincrumbs 250042 wrote:
Wow Gooner, a lot of these were questions I had as well and I really appreciate the amount of time it takes to put all this info down. Thank you very much.
You are very welcome MuffinCrumbs – glad it helped.
:laugh:@TheGooner 250050 wrote:
Short answer ? No. It’s not worth it.
Slightly longer answer …
I use e-wallets all the time. They are great and I have pages recommending them on site with affiliate links. But the thing that makes them great (low fees) is also the thing that means that it’s not a great deal for affiliates.
Moneybookers pays 20% of fees for a year, which is a little low percentage but OK that’s their deal, however, they cap their fees to players at just 0.50 Euros and even if a player makes 10 transactions a month that’s still just 5 euros and only a single euro to the affiliate.
And the one year thing really cuts in. Because it’s likely that the real value is in having the players who have long term accounts – as they are likely to be the active and heavy users.
We still list e-wallets, and recommend them, as a service to players. But in terms of an affiliate revenue stream it’s very small compared to gambling – probably less than 1/10th of 1% of revenue.
:whoa:That’s what I thought, and I agree that wallets are great. I’ll still recommend it to players as you suggest but will not push for it more in terms of making money.
I think Gooner gave a very good description of the player types out there. I would also agree with Gooner about e wallets and you can also use them for content purposes. But don’t expect much from a revenue aspect
Tomand to answer your question of $10,000 on a casino deposit I would expect to see $2,000-2,500 on your example.
Brian
