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In all honesty if someone was padding stats i think they would show more then 20 to 35 listeners . I mean how much can you really charge for 30 listners ?
I have your answer…….
Go to this page and scroll down to #3090 and you will find Holdem Radio’s stats from October. (unfortunately Shoutcast does not update often)
http://www.shoutcast.com/ttsl.html
Hold’em Radio Total Listening Hours: 5,548.75
They seem to be padding by about 60 extra listeners per hour. At the time of this post they show 93 Listeners with 28 unique.
60 listeners X 24 Hours a day = 1440 Extra Listening Hours per day X 30 days = 43,200 total listening hours. That is a 778% increase for this behavior, I think that is substantial.
If you click this link to listen to Hold’em Radio anytime close to the time I post this, you will hear a garbled mess that is not listenable:
http://holdemradio.com/live.asx
Then go to this page: http://70.87.85.162:8002/index.html
And they show 97 people listening to this garbled mess? If you are considering advertising there and they offered you a package with 10,000 impressions, how many do you really think you would get? Some would be fake streams and some would be scrambled audio.
I am by no means telling you what to do….just offering a way for you to see the info for yourself if you are considering advertising with this company.
10,20 or even 50 listeners … it’s all micro channels.
Narrow casting in the extreme.But imagine being caught out boosting numbers just to get to 30 listeners.
:roflmao:You are not catching on, it is not to get 30 listeners, it is to defraud advertisers. If you paid them for 10,000 impressions and only got 500 REAL Impressions would you feel you had been mislead or cheated?
no message
I think some people don’t understand the concept of impressions based advertising at all. If your business concept is based on CPM advertising alone overstating by that much basically generates more profit in line with the blown up stats assuming the CPM rate stays the same or doesn’t go down. They may even make up some good user “survey” statistics to be able to demand a higher CPM rate altogether.
I understand the basis behind CPM – it’s soooo 2002. Imagine not differenciating between quality of viewers – in this case totally imaginary – surely it’s a model that’s dead.
My point is that if you need to inflate numbers in order to make 50 listeners then this is very close to ZERO traffic. Any advertising medium base on ZERO real traffic will totally fail to deliver and the “business” will quickly be marked as not being value for money.
There are 100’s of similar propositions out there, from traffic harvesting sites (who claim they will send thousands of viewers each day) to the small PPC sites (whose clicks are sweat shops from Induia and China) and nearly all of them working on inflated stats and exaggerated claims of results.
This sounds no different – except that they’re having to lie to reach a miniscule total of 20,30,50 listeners …
:sarcasm::tongue: It’s the internet guys and gals – and there is plenty of stuff out there that is not true. Always verify any claim :tongue:
AceJones – I understand as a rival radio show you’re keen to clean up your industry but this is another example of a petty advertising scam. (ignoring the media)On a scale of 1 (minor annoyance) to 10 (total internet evil) …. I find this activity pretty much down at the low end.
LOL – You have no idea on the subject you are talking about. If you would or would not advertise with radio is not what this post is about. You keep saying 50 listeners.
When you buy advertising with us for instance you would buy an ad that runs about 360 times. If it reaches 50 people each time, that is 18,000 viewers in a perfectly targeted market. This is a cycle of 50 listeners at a time, not just 50 listeners.
So what dollar value do I need to wait for before posting about a scam? Do I have to value the scam at $100, $1000 or $10,000 before it becomes useful information?
It just so happens that many gaming companies advertise on radio and we do send many quality players to poker rooms no matter what you think of the industry. It appears to me that you feel you must talk as if you know about everything but have little knowledge on gaming radio and how it works.
It’s the internet guys and gals – and there is plenty of stuff out there that is not true. Always verify any claim
Isn’t that what we are doing here?
@AceJones 153776 wrote:
It appears to me that you feel you must talk as if you know about everything but have little knowledge on gaming radio and how it works.
And it appears to me that you have a pretty nasty previous relationship with this other party that colours all your posts. And you use that as a basis for calling this other guy “a crook” instead of mis-reported or mis-managed stats.
Now, now, must be nearing a full moon with all the disputes around here lately.
Gooner, I know AceJones, and he isn’t the type you describe.
Rounders radio does work for ads and what he says is true for that type of advertising. I have been thinking about advertising my poker forum there.
Ace, most people are totally unfamiliair with how this works. It is unlike any of the internet business most of us do.
Thanks Dom. I am going just let those facts speak for themselves and each person can take it or leave it.
AceJones;153537 wrote:Hello All,I normally just let the shady people go on being shady but I have come across some behavior going on in our industry that will affect both my business (the online radio industry) and could certainly take some of my colleagues for some cash by misrepresenting the truth. We passed some information along to one of the people associated with the company in question that this was going to be exposed if they did not quit these practices but apparently they didn’t care.
I am involved with RoundersRadio.com. Before we launched there was only one other site that was really doing what we do (poker talk radio) with any success. This company is HoldemRadio.com.
When we launched, Wade, the owner of HR publicly bad mouthed us and our company on his station. We felt there was no need for us to take any action and have remained silent in regards to HR for over a year.
Recently Hold’em Radio went through a tough spot and closed their site for about a month. Before this closure, during off peak hours they had between 2-14 listeners. Upon their return you would think it would take them a bit of time to build back up to their original listenership. Well, when we noticed they started right back up with 3 to 5 times as many listeners, we became curios as to how this was possible.
Since the site closed down they no longer have the services of their tech guy and have an issue with their stream just about every night where the audio gets scrambled beyond recognition. I don’t know what the real term is but we had this issue a bit in our early stages and we called it the “aliens” because it sounds like the movie scenes when aliens are speaking all garbled. This is not corrected for hours until someone came back to the studio.
We looked at their stats during this time when their radio feed is inaudible and there were anywhere from 20 to 35 listeners still tuned in. This is odd because the sound is unbearable and I know we lost every listener when this happened on our station. This did not make any sense at all. So are they number padding? One person can open multiple streams and it counts each one as a listener. It also counts each hour for the overall hour stats.
Online radio advertising is sold by impressions and a station’s overall success is counted by average listening time and total listening hours over the last 30 days. So if they are boosting the amount of streams by opening multiple ones, they would pad their impressions and listening hours. Now let’s look at the average listening time. Currently their average listening time is 8 hours, 46 minutes and 47 seconds. Really? The average listening time for terrestrial radio is 5 minutes, online radio is much higher than that but there is no way the average listener is on for that long unless they once again just open those streams and leave them running all day.
I have the proof below.
Click the following link to hear a sample of the garbled sound they were broadcasting and you can probably listen to live in the wee hours of the morning:
http://roundersradio.com/HoldemRadio2-11-2008-207am.mp3
Here is a screen shot of the stats page from that same time:
http://roundersradio.com/HoldemRadio2-11-2008-207am.jpgHere is a screen shot of the backend page showing they supposedly had 97 listeners but only 37 were unique.
http://roundersradio.com/HR-2-14-08-Shoutcast.jpgAnother time with 54 listeners and 20 unique:
http://roundersradio.com/02-14-08353am.jpgHere is a link to the stats page for them so you can see for yourself….at least until they read this and quit doing it.
http://70.87.85.162:8002/index.htmlOnce again I think we need to protect our industry from all the companies out there that are not doing things on the up and up. It is a shame that people feel they have to try and cheat people when the effort spent going around the system could be focused on the business and giving the quality product that will make you the money but also keep your integrity.
OK folks, I normally don’t respond to sour grapes but this is a bit to much….
I’ll go through this item by item and respond to this nonsense…
First thing, in regards to the accusation about me “badmouthing” rounders, I did that in response to the folks from rounders that spammed the hell out of one of our tournaments and in our chat room. After that, the spamming slowed down but did not stop. I had to take time out block folks from coming into the HoldemRadio chat room and spamming away… very childish behaviour in my opinion. That’s all I have to say about that.
In regards to how I am streaming and selling advertising, I could care less about impressions. That is not the model we use here. I will not go into specifics about how we sell as every time I come up with something new it suddenly appears somewhere else. I will say I have multiple streams running and will continue to do so. These multiple streams are for the benefit of our listeners and if folks can’t figure it out, so be it.
Before I started HoldemRadio I was a Network Administrator for a very large international company and my experience with the internet is extensive. I also worked at one of the most successful data centers in the country during the dot com boom and know stuff about the ‘net that most folks do not.
Go ahead and post all the stats pages you want from shoutcast… lol I don’t pay any attention to those either as for the most part they do not apply to HoldemRadio. I’m using special techniques to stream with that most folks do not know about. I learned a lot from my past experiences in the dot com industry…
I for one do not “cheat” people. HoldemRadio was the very first of it’s kind and there have definitely been some ups and downs. There will probably be more. If I was cheating people the folks I deal with on a daily basis would pitch me out in the street. The folks I’m talking about are casino owners, Professional poker players, etc. and I would not have been able to registered in the State of Nevada by the Nevada Gaming Commission to be a tournament Director. That requires a background check which I passed with flying colors.
That’s it from me…… I prefer to spend my time preparing new shows and goodies for our listeners, not dealing with folks that really don’t know what we are doing here and prefer to waste time with suppositions and make believe…
Sincerely,
Wade Andrews
HoldemRadio.com@AceJones 153776 wrote:
So what dollar value do I need to wait for before posting about a scam? Do I have to value the scam at $100, $1000 or $10,000 before it becomes useful information?
This may be the key here. Many people have mnissed the point I believe but then it may be because, as you say, it’s an experience outside of their remit and therefore low on their importance list. Of course scamming advertising can affect affiliates – think about it people!
Thanks for this information. I’m not sure how it can be acted upon, and I can relate to your frustration – but I’m sure it will come to some good.
Well, none of us here are in the radio business, but if there is one thing you should learn from us (the website folks) is that it’s bad business to bad-mouth your competitiors, no matter the case. As you can see, almost all of us behave quite civilized to each other on this and other forums, while we all fight for the same customer and sometimes we wished we could feed “the other guy” a knuckle sandwich.
My personal advice is to stop looking at each-others plates and work to build your businesses. Even though most of us are not interested in broadcasting, there are a few websites already testing the waters. You should be happy there are just two of you – type “online casinos” in google and see how many of us are there
