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Welcome to CAP, Pokershepherd!
Well, you bring up a whole lot of well thought out points.
The moral of the story is that you are working on player loyalty, and that is a very good thing in today’s environment.
Coming from a poker background should help you a lot.
Think about this: A player that brings you enough comission for you to be able to buy him an ipod – is he really going to be that impressed by it? What does that player need and want most?
IMO this is the line of thinking to follow here.
Dominique wrote:Think about this: A player that brings you enough comission for you to be able to buy him an ipod – is he really going to be that impressed by it? What does that player need and want most?A lot of affiliates can afford their own iPods etc. yet we are all very happy and impressed when we get them as a present from an aff manager..
It’s been discussed before but I still believe offering rakeback and gifts is egoistic.
You can wrap it in a nice gift box, add nice colors and present it as you being competitive, offering players good deals etc.. but the bottomline is that you want to hog them away from other affiliates.
What does this result in? Higher consumer awareness, affiliate outbidding and a general degradation of affiliates monetary expectations.
Your members aren’t your friends, they’re your ressource to attain one goal : money. Everything an affiliate wraps around that is just to hide this fact.
The problem with these people is that they think they are original. The only reason it works is because others haven’t joined the bandwagon (yet). But believe me, the more people will steal members away from legitimate affiliates, the more affiliates will go for rakeback/gifts. And once most of us are rakeback/gift oriented, there will always be someone beating you at it, reducing your profit margin to 0.
Why oh why must every rakeback thread and affiliate be attacked?
These affiliates know your stance and respect it.. now respect theirs and let them discuss things amongst themselves should they wish to chat about it and discuss ideas..
If you do not like it.. do not read threads that start with the word “rakeback”.
Even Dom (Who I think is the biggest anti-rakeback affiliate around) discusses these issues in a calm way and gives advice. naturally trying to dissuade affiliates from offering rakeback – but not attacking them.
What were his “ideas”, exactly?
It was an apology of rakeback/gifts with a touch of “I do it for their own good because I care about the players” wrap.
Just my humble opinion.
I am not going to get into an argument, but I do not see any apology and in fact has nothing to apologise for. The idea that you did not see was that he rebranded the site into a comps site – rakeback is still there..
I’m a new affiliate, with a couple of sites. I’m offering rakeback, and I’ve recently re-branded my main site as a ‘comp’ site. iPods, tickets, tourney seats, etc, as rewards for loyal players. rakeback is still there.
He also said he is willing to listen to some ideas…
And I know of posters here have lots of experience and better perspective on the rakeback issue, so I’m prepared to listen.
And I do not see him being the arrogant person you make him out to be…
Whatever..
all I am saying is … sometimes.. let it go. Not everything has to be a crusade.
I am against rake back also, but to answer one of your questions. If you are going to use the rake back model and you care at all about your players, you should educate them about the values of bonuses and rake back and the difference. Educate them that unless they play 40+ hours a week at 5/10 or higher they would probably be ahead to chase bonuses than play for rake back. Then give them a list of rooms to clear bonuses at. This may build value to your site and hopefully your customers will come back to your list and sign up through your links. There is very little loyalty and if you give your visitors solid honest information you will have a chance to succeed.
I don’t think this thread has turned into attacks – everyone is entitled to their opinions.
I am glad pokershepherd posted here. He is more than welcome. And it is an interesting topic many care about. And I think we can wade through it without hurting each others feelings.
I see it like this (and admittedly this experience comes from advertising Casinos – I never tried incentivising poker players):
If I base my promos on freebies and free cash I am going to get “free loaders”. These are very non-loyal players that only follow the $. Whether you do rake back and have your competition underbid you, or whether you give away Ipods and have others give away computers to compete, you are catering to a crowd that is only with you as long as you have the bigger reward.
This is exactly the environment Casinos have created with their bonuses – and then they complain about bonus hunters and bonus abuse. No one is born wanting bonuses. People are taught to want them. And I think that is what Jack Ten was pointing out. By offering these things we are creating a certain breed of player – one that is always out to hunt down the bigger reward.
Yes Peralis, attentive gifts are always nice. They make you feel good, especially when you feel they are personal. But do you really rearrange your site so that you can get an ipod someone is offering whom you do not already promote? No. You just like the appreciation someone is showing you. It’s PERSONAL! That is the true value, not the ipod. I for one respond just as well to some inexpensive flowers.
If you cater to players who will only respond to incentives, you need a lot of them, the more you have, the more likely you are to survive with this model.
What was very nice about pokershepherd’s approach is the personal attention – I also find this to create nice loyalty.
What rake back is trying to achieve is to lock in players that spend a bunch of money. By definition, freebie hunters do not. It is an oximoron.
If one wants to lock in large players – watch what the casinos do for retention. They send unexpected and unsolicited presents, champagne, flowers, whatever is appropriate. It is personal attention that motivates players to be loyal.
Just my take on it.
Perhaps someone could explain something to me and my vision would change. Here is a case example : the site bonuswhores.com
They offer no rakeback and no gifts, but their site is entirely dedicated to bonus leeching. I would like someone to tell me how anyone benefits from this. If they are under rev share, each player leeching bonuses starts at -90$ on a site like PartyPoker. And they aren’t going to play there long term and make up for that 90$ deficit, since they are encouraged to abuse reloads. I came up with the calculation for the -90$ in another thread recently. Argue with the methodology at will, but no matter how you change it, it’s almost impossible to have the bulk of your players above -75. This is perfectly normal for someone informed. I’m a poker player and I do it because it is to my advantage. If however they were under CPA, which is the only way they can make money, the poker rooms are leeched by both the player and affiliate ; not going to happen.
How can a site like that be profitable? They have a large audience. Yet I fail to see the advantage to that business model other than raising consumer awareness and lowering profit margins.
Thanks to Dominique for explaining my point in a non-confrontative point.
Thanks for the thoughts on the subject….
JackTen, looks like you regard rakeback and gifts as being the same?
Dominique – well put. Advertised incentives might take the personalization out of them – the free iPod that comes as a surprise has a lot more impact than one that was promised up front. Yet it has power as an incentive too… players want to know exactly what they’re getting and respond well to specifics.. but the ‘comp’ system in place in vegas for years works too… by now everyone knows that players are comped for loyalty, and so some of them treat it as a ‘goal’ to work towards or something they expect; most don’t…. all are gratified nonetheless when the comp is awarded. It feels good to be acknowledged, and people love freebies.
peralis, do you incentivize your offers?
As for phasing out rakeback completely, that’s tough.. there is a group of players who are keyed into it…. i agree they’re not the same people who bonus scavenge. I want to retain players at one site.. encourage them to choose carefully but also to make it seem like a good idea to stick around.
Do you really think it will take all the ‘fun’ out of a gift if it was laid out at the start that gifts are inevitable? LOL, like a sugar daddy, vs. just a thoughtful gift giver. Hadn’t thought about it like that.
A gift worth 200-400 dollars (which I might be able to get wholesale) seems a good approach to me. Players frequently generate a lot more than that in a few weeks, and I think it’s all about how you frame it. I’m willing to take the time to chat with each player, make them feel appreciated… I do appreciate them, if they weren’t playing, none of us would have a job!
Finally, HOW do you make money without any incentives? I’m not new to promotion but I’m new to poker promotion… it seems like I see a thousand affiliate codes a day, and they’re all offering identical things. Gets tiresome, especially in forums and tighter-knit poker playing circles (where the big players tend to be)…most of the people I advertise to are informed, are keenly aware of competing offers, even playing one affiliate off another at times. Where do you get the players who just sign up without bargain hunting first?
PS
While I dont believe rakeback is a good business model, I know I am always happy to receive gifts, no matter how small or large.
Casino Coins and Vegas Partner have always been some of my favorite programs to work with just because they do send me goodies from time to time. I would imagine players would feel the same way.
If there were a managable way to give them out I would have no problems giving rewards/gifts to my players.
internettexasholdem.com does this. They offer 2 books when you sign up to certain websites. Thanks to them, I’ve built my collection of poker books by doing the bonuses on those sites and then never played there again.
It only increases consumer awareness and encourages you to leech. I know I would hate if my members were like me.
