This is another in our series of video interviews with the online casino industry’s innovators and experts.
When you watch the video, you’re going to learn about Karim’s journey from a 10-year career as an investment banker to running one of the most well-known affiliate sites in the poker business.
He talks about building his first site with Yahoo! Sitebuilder and why he chose to focus on rakeback. We then discuss the current state of the online poker industry, how customer service makes a huge impact on earnings, whether PPC has worked for Karim, and what affiliates should focus on to ensure their success … now and in the future.
Karim is the co-founder and CEO of RakeTheRake, one of the leading rakeback sites in the online poker industry. RakeTheRake has enabled players to receive over $125 million in rakeback and cash since the site was founded.
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Warren: Hey guys, it’s Warren Jolly with Casino Affiliate Programs, and you’re watching another one of our video interviews where we profile some of the most influential people in the iGaming industry. I’m personally am really excited for today’s guest who happens to be Karim Wilkins, the co-founder and CEO of RakeTheRake, the largest and most reputable poker rakeback affiliate in the poker space.
Karim’s company has enabled players to receive over $125 million in rakeback and cash since RakeTheRake was founded. He also happens to be a rather funny fellow, but I’ll let everyone judge that for themselves. Today’s interview is going to provide insight into the world of one of the most successful affiliates to ever enter the iGaming scene. So, my suggestion to everyone is to pay attention and listen really closely.
Karim, thanks for your time today. Let’s give our audience a little bit of insight into the crazy world of Karim Wilkins and what got you into the iGaming industry.
Karim: Hey Warren, thanks for giving me the time. My background is based in investment banking. I came from ten years of investment banking and found myself at the back end of redundancies from the banking industry. While I was on leave at one point, a friend of mine invited me to come and play poker.
Now I’d never played before. So I went online and taught myself. About three months later I played this live game. I was absolutely appalling. You knowing me I got horrendously drunk and was all in pretty early and all out pretty quickly. But even when the game finished, having spent three months playing online, I was, like most people, suddenly addicted to online poker. So I kept playing, and I tried to make a living out of it, which, if anyone’s ever tried, they know exactly how hard it can be.
You’ve got to be really motivated each morning to get up, play the game, and it’s, it’s tough to know that you’ve got to meet the bills and everything like that. So you set yourself targets, how much you’ll make in a day, how much you’re prepared to lose. Of course, you then sort of lose four times as much as you thought you were going to lose and then you chase it, and it gets progressively worse.
One day while I was playing, some guy in the chat, which obviously is prohibited now, he was trying to sell me rakeback. He gave me all the spiel, and he sent me a couple of emails about it. I thought he’s not asking me for money here. He’s offering to give me money. So I asked him what his website was, and he didn’t have one. I thought to myself, well, you’re not instilling a lot of trust necessarily. I want to go and visit something. I want to have a look at it, make sure it’s real, la la la.
So, I thought I’ll build a website. I had no skills in the area. I went to Yahoo SiteBuilder and literally drag and dropped a site into place, and that was in December of 2004. It was a pretty ugly site. If you use those wayback machines, you can go and have a look at it. There wasn’t a lot else in that space at the time, and Google loved it. We found ourselves highly ranked and probably one of the three original rakeback sites, and that’s pretty much how it started.
Warren: Right. For our viewers who may not know, what is rakeback and how does it work?
Karim: Well, when you play online poker and even when you play live, effectively, pretty much every hand that’s played, mostly providing a flop is seen, the house rakes the hand. They take a cut from every hand. This is obviously to pay for the overheads, providing the software, developing the software, and also obviously for them to make a profit as well. The rake is taken from each pot. It’s usually about up to five percent. It’s capped at three units. So whether you’re playing in dollars, Euros or pounds, it’s usually three of those units. Each person who’s playing in the hand, to make this easy, is said to have put into the pot the rake.
So, if the pot was say 60 bucks, 5 percent of the 60 bucks is $3. Let’s say there are six people playing at a table. Then each of those people is said to have attributed $0.50 or 50 pence to the rake. What happens is, that as an affiliate when you bring in a player to a poker room, obviously they can either pay you by CPA or by revenue share. So rakeback affiliates are always on revenue share. What happens is that we’ll get paid for the lifetime of the player. Let’s say we get paid 40%. So for that $0.50 that that player put in for one hand, we would get paid $0.20 of that. But what rakeback is or what a rakeback affiliate does is take the $0.20 and say to the player, “Look actually I’m going to give you 30% of what you paid back, so I’m going to give you $0.15 back, and I’m going to keep $0.05.
You do this for every hand, to every player, and of course, the amounts differ. Sometimes the player is getting 35%. Sometimes with Full Tilt’s case, it used to be 27%. Obviously, the player doesn’t know exactly what commission you’re taking as an affiliate, but the bigger you become, obviously the higher commission rake you can get from the poker rooms.
What we did is that rake goes back to the player, and so the player is getting rakeback. It helps them to fund their accounts. It helps some people to break even each month, and it helps some people make a small profit on the month. The rooms are fine with it. Most of the rooms are fine with it. Obviously, there are some who don’t see it that way. Because it keeps the players playing and it acts as a loyalty tool, it’s a retention device really.
Warren: Great. So from an affiliate’s perspective, you’re giving the majority of your commission, affiliate commission back to the player to essentially encourage a higher volume of play, which you hope is, at the end of the day, that higher volume of play makes up sort of for the percentage that you’re giving back to your players. Is that correct?
Karim: Yeah. All we’re doing, like I said, it’s just another retention tool. It’s a niche in the market that was found, that everybody was doing from day one. Whether you give a tournament seed away, whether you give a cash bonus, a reload bonus, an iPod, an iPad, whatever you do, you’re giving something back to the player in return for them being loyal to your site and playing. This is just a cash element of doing that. So it’s no different from those other retention tools.
Warren: So with RakeTheRake, why did you, I guess, primarily focus on rakeback affiliation as your primary business model? Did you ever get into just straight up promoting player bonuses and driving poker players the traditional way, or was rakeback really the area where you chose to focus in, and why?
Karim: Well, I guess it sort of goes back to your initial question about how I got into the industry really. I specifically myself can’t remember how I found online poker. I would suspect that when I was invited to go and play a live game, I went online probably to search for online poker or. I think actually at the time I was playing with . . . I get the funny feeling I’m a bit of a prolific gambler, and I think I already had an account at Betfair. So I went to Betfair’s poker site, started playing there, and when I got hit on, by the chat and discovered this rakeback element to it, I didn’t really know what else was out there.
So, I found this niche market, which I felt I could develop, and I wasn’t really aware from day one of what else existed. I didn’t come to the business thinking, right I’m an affiliate in another other area of the world of retail or something, and I want to expand into gaming. How am I going to do it? I just fell into rakeback straight away. So, it was only having done that initially, and in subsequent months and years, that I found out that there are other ways of doing this, whether it be just direct a la PokerListings or PokerNews and sites like that, who just drive traffic straight.
But, with hindsight, I don’t think that was a way we could have necessarily driven traffic to sites because we were joining the game too late. We found a niche, which we developed, but the other people were already doing the straightforward referral stuff. I don’t think we could have competed, or people today can really compete with some of the sites that have been established for eight, nine years.
Warren: Sounds like a blessing in disguise.
Karim: Absolutely. No, I can’t really say it was necessarily luck because I’ve always been a serial entrepreneur as well, trying to find ways to work for myself and come up with ideas. That said, I guess there was an element of luck to it.
Warren: Nice. So who are some of the main competitors in the rakeback space today?
Karim: Going back right to day one, the original sort of three were ourselves, RakeTracker, RakeRebate.net, and obviously people have joined up since. Most have come and gone to be honest with you. But there are some big players out there, obviously PokerSource, who at the time weren’t really doing that sort of thing. They were just doing points for coupons, tables, and chips. Obviously, PokerListings developed their own side of things, which is now RakeBrain and obviously PokerStrategy have also sort of dipped their toe into the market as well.
So, I’d say out there you’ve pretty much got those sort of six players, three or four other medium size, and then a handful of individuals.
Warren: And so what methods do you employ in terms of marketing to drive players? Tell us a little bit about that.
Karim: Well, it’s always a tricky one really. There are all sorts of things. There’s SEO, email, pay per click, and stuff like that. We’ve tried everything to be honest with you. We’ve spent fortunes on SEO, not only with rakeback but with other stuff that we’ve done. It’s difficult. I’m not a massive fan of SEO. I think that there are a lot of companies out there that try to sell you that stuff now who don’t really know what they’re talking about. I find the sites that do well are the ones that have been around for the longest anyway. I think that carries a massive weighting, as far as the search engines are concerned.
That’s not to say that doing SEO work, we have a third party who sort of advises on SEO. We tweet things here and there. So I’m not saying that SEO doesn’t help. I just don’t think you should be throwing all your eggs in one basket, especially if you’re joining the game relatively late.
Email marketing, yes, there’s an element of that. But even that’s becoming a tired source. How many people these days are reading their emails? We’re hearing of other people who are doing things like sending out text messages and stuff. We haven’t tried that yet. It’s something we’re considering, but obviously it’s an expensive method.
Pay per click we never found really worked for us. It’s been difficult. We’ve had Google AdWords, which obviously has been just for UK accounts. The hit, the return on investment for those, it’s just ridiculous. We employ all those elements that I’ve mentioned to a very small degree, or tried and tested them. They all work to a fraction, but none individually is that good.
What I find works best is basically having great customer service and getting your own players to refer other players. I think them spreading the word is your biggest marketing tool. If you can get one guy and you make him happy, obviously poker wise, then he’ll go on to recommend maybe two friends. If they’re satisfied, they’ll go to do two more, and of course it snowballs from there really, and you can build your community and your player base that way.
So I think focusing on the customer retention of your existing customers is the best marketing tool you have.
Warren: Okay. I guess the question is, out of the new customers that you’re driving from RakeTheRake, how are those customers coming to the site? Are you primarily driving those through organic search, just because of the age of the site? How are you driving your new depositors today?
Karim: Rakebacks are really a tricky one, because, it’s not a word that any new poker player will know from day one. They won’t know what the rake is. Millions of them still have no idea what rake is. Probably half of them don’t even notice the fact that every hand a little bit of cash is being taken off the table. So for people to find rakeback from the day they think about going online, it’s not going to happen.
So what happens is that people, obviously, then learn about it through friends. They read about it in poker forums. We’ve taken out adverts in magazines. We’ve put some stuff on television. For us, there’s the Holy Grail out there that we still haven’t found, and no other rakeback affiliate has done, which is to try and work out how to educate the masses on what exactly rakeback is. If you can do that, you’ll clear up.
It’s just a case of word of mouth really, and if you can find a niche advertising space somewhere to try and convince people that this is what they should be doing, they should definitely be signing up to rooms through affiliates who offer this service, then you’ll do well out of it.
But it’s a tricky one. So we rely a lot on, like I said, on customer referrals. Also, we’re heavily involved in a few of the forums. We make sure we buy advertising space there and we post solutions to people’s problems and help them with questions they’ve got.
Warren: And what are some of those forums?
Karim: Well, mostly Two Plus Two to be honest with you. We’ve done a few other forums in the past, whether it’s PokerForums.org. We’ve got our own forum now as well, which is slowly finding its feet. But no, predominately Two Plus Two.
Warren: Okay. So it sounds like for rakeback it’s more about the outreach, you going out and educating the masses about it as best as you can. Obviously, you said you haven’t found the Holy Grail yet, but it’s not something that users really know about, so hence the search volume doesn’t really allow you to build a big business off of it. So essentially, you built a high quality product and people enjoy the product, and they tell others about after you kind of capture them through you broadcasting. Is that accurate?
Karim: I think that’s pretty accurate, yeah.
Warren: Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. So where do you see the future of the rakeback market, in both the U.S. and elsewhere?
Karim: You’re going to get people sort of saying rakeback is coming to an end every other day. To be honest with you, I don’t see it, because I don’t look at rakeback as just one unique thing. In some houses, it’s considered a dirty word. But as I said earlier on, it’s just another retention tool. It really doesn’t matter what you want to call it, it, whether it’s a kickback, a reload, a live, whether you give people stuff back as live events or an iPad or anything like that. It’s just a retention tool.
So I don’t see rakeback going anywhere to be honest with you. A lot of houses have taken it in-house. A lot of rooms have taken it in-house effectively, so having their own VIP programs. Look at something like Stars. Stars has never actually said, “We offer rakeback.” But their retention, their VIP program will give you up to 80% back if you hit the top tiers.
Everyone does it anyway. The iPokerNetwork have their own VIP program, if anyone can actually decipher it on any given Sunday. But it all exists. So, I think rakeback is here to stay. It’s healthy. I think that as far as the U.S. is concerned, I think that there will be a rebirth, as and when it goes legal there.
Obviously, you’ve still got Merge, Everleaf, and CakeNetwork taking U.S. players at the moment anyway. But I think that once the U.S. comes back online, I think it will be a valued tool.
I don’t think as far as affiliates are concerned there will be any problem about the big houses, whoever they are, who get these licenses, not needing affiliates. There’s been a lot of scaremongering there as well. I think that, if you think about it, let’s say you’ve got two big houses out of the States come out and get licenses. One of them says, “We don’t need affiliates,” and the other one says, “Well, hold on a second, there are 100,000 guys out there who know what they’re doing, they’ve been doing this for 10 years. If we employ them to help us get traffic,” then they’re going to have 10,000 people doing their SEO, doing their marketing, all for free, only getting paid once they’ve brought in the results and stuff like that. They’re going to do exceptionally well compared to that other house that said, “No, we don’t need affiliates.” So I think that affiliates will still exist and I think that there will still be rakeback plans, whether they be internal VIP programs or what. It’ll still exist. So I think it’s all healthy. The future’s nice and rosy.
Warren: All right. So just touching briefly on the state of the U.S. online poker market, and I know you’re kind of in the midst of this yourself, can affiliates ever expect to get paid by Chipleader or FullTilt?
Karim: Yes, I was going to say that’s a $64,000 question, but for us it’s a slightly bigger question than that. I mean, we got hit massively by that, I mean as far as existing cash on account and not having been paid to us is concerned. I’ll be fair. It’s actually more at Chipleader than at FullTilt. Tilt were very good when it all went wrong. Stars were very good, as far as payments were made and obviously they paid out pretty quickly. Tilt continued to pay. A lot of U.S. people out there didn’t get paid and still haven’t. But there’s only a certain amount of revenue that we’ve still got missing on Tilt.
As far as people actually getting paid out is concerned, my advice, and I think most people already think like this anyway, to affiliates, is that certainly to just write it off for now. If you do get paid out, then it’s just an added bonus. What are your chances of getting paid by AP and UB? Probably about five percent. I’m sure there are people, who are out there shouting at their podcasts now or webcasts.
At FullTilt? I don’t know. I haven’t given up on FullTilt. I still think that that’s salvageable. Yeah, maybe a 20% chance at the moment. It really depends in what form they come back online. Whatever happens, even if they do come back online and as far as AP and UB are concerned as well, the payouts are going to be slow, because obviously, there’s probably going to be an initial massive rush. I would have thought that whoever takes them over or however they relaunch, is going to have some sort of progress in place about limited withdrawals, to try and encourage people that it’s back online, to start playing again, to help rebuild the community and stuff like that. But, as far as we’re concerned, we’ve written it off and if we do get it back then . . . there’s a small chance we’ll get it back, at least at Tilt. But if we do, it’s a bonus.
Warren: Okay. Recently because of the changes that have been happening, have you as a business diversified out of poker or rakeback? Have you looked at other verticals, either within gaming or outside of gaming?
Karim: We were always looking at other things prior to Black Friday anyway. I mean we’ve dabbled our hand in casinos. We have a brand, MrCasinos.com, which has a number of properties underneath it- MrBlackjack, MrRoulette, MrsBingo, these sorts of things. We’ve been trying that for a couple of years now, and I think it’s MrSportsbook.com as well. Again, going back to what I said earlier, these markets, it’s very tough to get into. We’ve spent a lot on SEO to try and get those sites ranked higher. But it’s tremendously hard, and we haven’t been that successful with it to be honest.
What we’re doing at the moment, as far as the collapse of the U.S. stuff is concerned, is focusing on our existing players. We’re trying to make sure we retain those U.S. players. We can try and get them to come across to other rooms, but we appreciate at the same time that a lot of them don’t have their bankrolls back yet. So it’s a real sensitive situation.
So we’re trying to work with the existing rooms to come up with ways to get them funded somehow, to help them restart their poker careers. That’s our priority at the moment, is to focus on what we’ve got to make sure we knuckle down. Not that we’ve never not paid full attention to our players anyway. Give them that extra, extra push at the moment just to make sure everyone’s happy where they are. And then, possibly if things start to pick up again, we can look at other verticals and stuff like that.
We do have a new site coming out in a couple of week’s time. I’ll keep it on the QT for now. We’ve got a straightforward poker site which doesn’t involve rakeback coming out, hopefully in a couple week’s time. So, we’ll, we’ll let you know about that then.
Warren: Thanks for that. In the next sort of three to five years, what do you believe will be the countries for online poker and where affiliates should really be paying attention, and what are your plans in those specific countries?
Karim: I think that’s always another tricky question, because I always wonder about this. You hear people saying two years ago Eastern Europe is the way forward and all this. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t. For gosh knows how long, since I’ve been here, everyone’s going Asia. Asia. Asia. And now it’s South America.
I sort of sit here and wonder and think, if Asia really wanted to come online massively in this area, wouldn’t they have done it already? Maybe poker just isn’t their game. Also, how many people in Asia have got expendable incomes that they can go out, get a computer, sit down and play poker?
I appreciate that, in a country like China, where there are a billion people, even if you’ve got one percent of them who have got any money, that’s still 10 million people and therefore some of them are going to be playing poker. But it’s not the majority. It’s not necessarily their game, and so I question that.
South America again, how many people in South America are wealthy enough to sit down and start playing poker? It’s one of these things that we are looking at. We’re looking more at South America than we are at Asia to be honest with you, but I’m not overly convinced that either of them is necessarily going to be massive as far as poker is concerned. Now, I’m not saying that bingo won’t be huge in South America.
Casino I’m sure is already very big in both countries. Everyone knows that the Chinese love a game of roulette or blackjack. So maybe that’s where all the money is going to be made.
But I think as far as the rest of the world is concerned, it’s more a case of making sure that you’ve got a great product poker wise and that the countries . . . every day in England another 58,000 people become 18, or in America another 124,000. I have no idea what the numbers are. I’m making them up. But as people suddenly become 18 and therefore they can . . . there must be a million people a day in America right, if there are 300 million people roughly, suddenly become 21 and can gamble online, or not gamble online depending on who you ask.
So, I think those areas there’s still potential. We saw a massive boom over the last few years, which has dipped considerably in the last couple of years. But I think that can all pick again, and we should be focusing on countries where people are still playing, your Italy’s, your France’s, your Germany’s, and those countries really.
Warren: Okay. In your opinion, who are your best operators for affiliates to promote, based on your own experience? Who have you had the best relationships with?
Karim: Ooh, this could make me really popular or really unpopular couldn’t it? Off the top of my head, I would say that great operators at the moment are the likes of Party, Betfair, PokerHeaven. Out of the U.S., I’d say people like Carbon. That’s just to name a few. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a bunch of great people out there and good rooms. I think the reason that those guys are so good is that they really actually seem to care about their affiliates. They’ve got people in place. They’ve always treated affiliates well. They’re fair. They have one rule for all rather than one for some and one for another.
I’ve just never felt, in all the time I’ve ever worked with any of the rooms that I’ve mentioned, I mean Party and Betfair and Heaven, Party and Betfair I think I’ve been working . . . Betfair gosh, I am at seven years. Betfair was my first room on RakeTheRake. The relationship there has always been fantastic. You get what you need. You email them. They’re friends. These people are friends. Whereas you find that when, a lot of the rooms that I deal with or we deal with, it’s more of just a straightforward business relationship. You never really feel, you’re getting their attention or their trust. So, like I say, I’m named four, but there are probably 10 or 12 rooms that we work with out there. Now I’m thinking of others in my mind. I’m not going to shout them. Otherwise I’m going to forget one and disappoint the rest. So, I think those are the good brands at the moment.
Warren: So it’s a must for them to bring you to the Playboy Mansion, I think in L.A., to really kick the business off to the next level?
Karim: I tell you what, those days are gone, aren’t they buddy? Those used to be the days. That’s the funny thing. These things aren’t that important, but it’s nice to be invited. That’s the most important thing. At the end of the year, you get a card. There was one big room that we worked with, and it’s no secret it was Tilt. We have made, God knows, us and all the other affiliates have made hundreds of million dollars for these people. Come Christmas, come any time of the year, you didn’t get as much as card. You didn’t get as much as a Christmas card or anything. It was unbelievable. You had smaller rooms where you’d generate 50 grand a year or 100 grand a year for, and they’d send you an iPod or a knife set. I’m not really sure where that came from. But just anything, a bag. It’s just those little touches that are important. All you affiliate managers in poker rooms, who actually end up listening to this, its just the small touches. Send gifts, send gifts, send invites.
Warren: Bring Karim to L.A as well. That’s the only thing that I can . . .
Karim: Yeah, bring Karim to L.A. to see Warren.
Warren: Well, cool. Karim, tell us just a little bit about your business in terms of your structure. How many people have you got, where your office is, what do those people do? Just give us a little bit of insight as much as you’re willing to share into your operation.
Karim: Well, with Black Friday and the Tilt capitulation, we unfortunately had to let a couple of people go. But we have three offices, one in Essex in England, one in Stockholm, where we have four, now three web designers and one of our administration staff. In England, we’ve got, let’s see, ten people in the office here, which is made up of a marketing head, two accountants, three customers services team, and three web developers, soon to be two on Friday.
London, where we run a few of our other brands, the casino brands, other brands like Rakeback.co.uk, PokerRakeback.com, we’re down to two there now. So, I think, what are we, 10, 12, 15, 16, 17 . . . about 17 people at the moment. We did reach a high of about 21, but like I said, we’ve had to let a couple of people go unfortunately. So, that’s the split on personnel.
What was the other question? Was there something else Warren?
Warren: No, no just asking, where your locations are and what the staff do, but I think you’ve answered that pretty well. So thanks for that. So, I guess this is a loaded question, but you are one of the most successful affiliates in the iGaming industry that has ever entered the space. What is your secret recipe to success?
Karim: I’ve always surrounded myself with good people for starters. I think no man is an island. The team I have working for me are terrific, and I trust them all. They get their heads down and do the work when it needs to be done. Personally, this is probably my third attempt at wanting to be, doing my own thing. I was around when the dotcom boom was going off, and we tried to launch a venture then that didn’t work and tried something else since as well. This is the one that’s worked.
It’s really about hard work and dedication. It’s about putting in 17 hour days for 2 years, every year, day after day. Answering the emails that are even coming in at 2:00 in the morning and just working through and doing your best and putting everything into it really.
Other than that, we found a niche. We developed it, and we’ve stuck at it. We’ve never rested on our laurels really. We’ve always tried to just keep going, make it bigger and better. That’s pretty much it. It’s work hard and surround yourself with good people.
Warren: Okay. What advice could you offer someone who is considering becoming an iGaming affiliate in today’s market?
Karim: If you talked specifically about rakeback to start off with, I think you need to piggyback off one of the bigger affiliates. We, for instance, offer a white label solution that I’ll plug it now, www.rakebackpartners.com. By doing that, an affiliate coming into the market today can easily launch their own rakeback site, literally within two minutes. They can buy a domain and they can set up a site. The reason I suggest that and doing it through us or there are a couple of other guys out there who have similar programs. But it’s because, it’s ultra competitive these days, and to be able to compete, we give away, what $300,000 or $400,000 a month in extra stuff on top of the rakeback.
So, if a player’s going to come and look at our site and look at a new affiliate’s site, we’re both offering 30% at PokerHeaven but they see that we’re offering a free role, free training and a raise, then it’s more a case of they’re going to sign up with us really.
If you can be a smaller affiliate, and you can piggyback off an affiliate like us, then you can offer all those promotions to your own guys. Then it’s down to you on how you market and go out and find the players.
So, from the rakeback point of view, it’s that. But as far as being an affiliate coming into the gaming market in general, again it’s massively tricky. If we hadn’t done rakeback, we would not have been as remotely as successful as we are, or at least as we became. If I had just become a normal affiliate and try and compete with the likes of back in the day, PokerListings and PokerNews, we simply wouldn’t have been able to achieve those levels. We probably would be one-sixth, one-seventh, maybe even one-tenth, one-twentieth of the size we’ve become. So, it is ultra difficult. You need to find a niche, I guess. Look for a new niche in the market. Look for a new way to attract players, and I really think that’s the best way to do it. If you can find some way of getting through to masses of players, then you can begin a business.
Warren: Great. And once again, that’s RakebackPartners.com. The site where affiliates, I guess, can sort of begin that leveraging process. So thanks for that. I’m sure people will be interested in that. So let’s wrap up. I just want to thank you for your time and all of the insight you’ve given, I know you’ve shared a lot. We really appreciate that.
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