Massive Frauds in the Casino Affiliate Programs - Page 5

**Dominique** · 10-18-2005 01:03 PM

I have no problem with such a thread - it is sorely needed I think.

Just think of all the time and money Microgaming aff programs have spent of providing us with stats - it's downright frightening. This is all money that could have been profit and part of it would have come to us as comission.

Software developers are the people to provide the statistics software.

Since some programs provide different items from others, we know that the available stats could be really great - including favorite games played by individual players and all kinds of things that allow you to target your promos better because you know your player demography better.

Hopefully accuracy would improve with such in house statistics also.

Sticking the programs with providing the software for the stats is totally irrational.

**stdio** · 10-27-2005 07:13 PM

http://www.gamblingmagazine.com/frontpage.asp

Casino Affiliate Fraud
Part 1

Was checking back on his web site, and looks like part 1 of the series is up.. Interested to hear people's thoughts

**stdio** · 10-27-2005 07:21 PM

My feeling is he hasn't provided a heck of a lot of hard evidence here. But does put forth some well-reasoned arguments. Some of what he says may or may not be true, I'd like to see some more examples of people with specific results coming forward with their information, also more specific references for statements of fact made in the article.

A couple quotes that struck me..

It’s important to note that the majority of online gambling operators get 100% of their business from affiliates. The ones who don’t get 100% are pretty close to this figure, and the goal of every operator is to only get business from affiliates because it’s so easy to cheat them.

Many will even pay the affiliates on time each month to try to convince them that they are honest and reliable, when nothing can be further from the truth. When an affiliate has been cheated for 95% or much more, why not pay him on time to create a good impression.

**Spearmaster** · 10-27-2005 11:42 PM

In my opinion, a lot of hearsay, and very little fact of substance.

The article intertwines certain publicly-known facts (ie. ownership of Party) and software backends (ie. Handa-Lopez) with a bunch of hot air. Because there are some facts in the articles, some people unaware of what is going on will naturally take the whole article at face value.

The cookie issue does not rob affiliates - in fact, it allows a reasonable amount of time for a sale to be converted - otherwise, if someone else sends the player and converts them, they would not get credit.

Having not explored the cookie issue there in any depth, I'm reluctant to say any more in case there is something I have missed.

**** ******* was heavily involved with pornography at the time, and she was closely working with criminals and crooks as her close partners. You don’t have criminals as your partners unless you are dishonest yourself. She was also an attorney. Many good reasons not to trust her in the first place.

Fact: She was involved with porn.
Unproven: She was working with criminals and crooks.
Fact: She was an attorney.
Debatable: Being an attorney is a good reason not to trust someone.

This is what I mean about fact intertwined with hot air and hearsay.

Yeah, I'm still interested in what Claude has to say about all those other programs - but I'm not holding my breath, I started skimming after the paragraph above because it was quite clear that I wouldn't be seeing anything different from the past.

**fuze** · 10-28-2005 12:12 AM

at the end of the day, all that matters is your payout.

this is gambling...has any gambling industry ever been known for its honesty?

so to me i expect shaving and what matters most are my payouts and i don't much stock into the "stats" that my sponsor's software generates.

bb1webs · 10-28-2005 01:40 AM

well I think its somewhere inbetween both extremes brought to mention here; though in most cases I'd say its more towards the shave than the not:

let me explain. As one that taken steps to check sponsors for honesty; though not to the point I'd like of course, but enough that eventually one of two things will happen;

I'll either catch them thru my testers;

or else they'll prove to be so unprofitable with the players that they do get; if any; that the question of their honesty becomes a mute point; they are obviously incompetent at converting/retaining; so what's the point of proving whether or not they're honest?

this was always a point a friend in the biz always hounded; and I always was astounded at his adamant search for the truth. Who cares?!!! whether honest and incompetent; or dishonest; you're bottom line is all you need to look at.

Now the real question then falls to those programs consistently on the bubble. I bet I could name a number of them that seasoned vets would all say the same thing; ya; they seem to be underperforming in comparison.

walks like a duck.....

those are the programs that I think we need to start shedding some light on. these places that seemingly consistently have for one excuse or another; whether it be winners; fraud; or whatever the reason; and I suggest to everyone to take into consideration the combination of the usual excuses also is very suspect; say a winner one month; fraud the next, next month you earned a little but had some more little winners ....

whatever, the end result is that over a period of say 6 months; you ended up having about two decent months; two with no income; and maybe two that saw minimum payouts; and you know you are doing much better with another program offering similar software casinos....

its time to question with serious interest.

I've given this scenario before; and challenge everyone again. if you're not a gambler; then get a couple true players ; no matter what their stakes; and get them to be honest with you how much they play per week, and I think you will find it very interesting to hear that they play often. that your stats should change often, not every third or fourth day as some would have you beleive.

that almost nobody goes in and loses $50, $100; and then says "I'm done for the next three weeks, I'll play a little at hte end of the month.".

Gambling for most people is entertainment. not a means to make money. if it was to make money they'd go in and bet it all on a couple rolls with lady luck and walk out either with the money; or not. most people gamble as an escape so that's why its so hard to beleive some of the stats I see that don't change over literally days and days.

now the one exception to the above is the person that plays once and doesn't like the place, therefore its understandable they'd leave and not come back. but seeing stats on returning players update so rarely is upsetting because it obviously leaves much room for corruption.

One last thought. I have busted many, many programs that didn't report the player at all. that was back in the day when they didn't respect us at all and blatantly screwed us. Now things are much more sophisticated. you can "have winners" which I personally think is the favorite weapon of the cheaters today; as well a number of other less obvious; or perhaps better stated; less easy to catch ways of screwing the affiliate. The selective shaving tactic is I think alive and well; as well as many other ways.

ways I have personally caught cheating/incompetent tracking
player sign up didn't show
player deposit didn't show
player's deposit only showed 50% - this one i viewed as an obvious cheat; I deposited twice; why did one show the other not?

though not from cheating, i know for personal fact that it IS possible and have seen it done: to track a player from someone's account over to another; don't bother asking me how you'll just have to take my word for it. It was done to right a wrong, but I'm just saying its very possible to do.

and then on top of everything else is a huge problem in OG that I'm getting ready to address in full battle armour come the 2nd week of next month ; regardless of how this situation I'm currently involved with; comes out. at this point its just a matter of whether i decide to name the offending party, but rest assured it is an industry wide plague which is a freaking disgrace to the hard work we as affiliates go thru to accumulate real depositing players.

this story involves a loyal patron of over 5 years; 5 FREAKING YEARS! who the place in question has chosen to run off rather than use a little common sense and put forth an effort to overcome the deal-breaking obstacles they have created.

but loss of income due to shoddy CS is of course another story; but one that I feel also needs some further attention given by the powers that be. I've already got it written just waiting to see whether the place in question wants to take it to the point of my naming them.

**Maxfalcon1** · 10-28-2005 04:58 AM

While there is room between what Clause says and the reality, I've always insisted that there is fraud over there. Why? Because it's in human nature.

Which company and which person would not be tempted to diminishes the figures in a backend where nothing is shown in real-time? Or to develop poor tracking to get 1 out of 3 sales tracked at all?

Through I've no *hard* evidence to prove anything apart screen captures, I've seen so many things with lots of affiliate programs that I take this now as a fact and work with the *fraud* as a parameter in my business. I've seen lots of things that would say that I got players playing while I was seeing noting in stats.

On example? I got some 'proves' with Casino Shield. I pushed a little this software, because I was finding this software interesting. One thing that is great in their stats is that you can see exactly which online casinos YOUR players are playing. All those that have downloaded the software via your site and use the software are showing up each time they play and which casino they play (with no personal information of course).

I pushed people to download CS in my mailing list, once people confirmed their subscription. So that's quality players/traffic that were following us, because they got our newsletters.

Guess what? In the casinos list they played the most, the top 10 were casinos where I was making the less money. Contradictory... You can say that it's because they already got the casinos installed before they use CS through us... But on over 1050 casino sessions, it leaves some doubts, when you are marketing those casinos heavily and even inside the software, and that you know, by monitoring your traffic and clicks, that there you *are* sending people going to those casinos.

While everything is not black, we are far from the 100% white as well.

Those are my 2 cents. I know a lot disagree with my opinion, but take it as this. It is my opinion based on my short experience.

**Dominique** · 10-28-2005 10:38 AM

I really would like to see affiliate programs voluntarily submitting to third party independent audits like the casinos do.

It would dispell a lot of these perceptions, at least for those who subject themselves to such audits.

I know I would promote them way above all others, knowing that I will be compensated exactly for my efforts.

Some basically honest programs recoil from this idea because the statistics software is just not reliable. None of it is 100% reliable I understand, and often it is quite shoddy.

Again, I have to point at microgaming - they should hang their head in shame for not providing an accurate, uniform tracking program. They are spending all this money on new games and all kinds of incentives - show me an audited program and it will be all the incentive I will ever need.

APCW and Todd have been conducting some tests, much of the same type as we all conduct periodically. They can, if you are not perchance catching the time a particular program tracked correctly, tell a lot. But it's not like a real audit - if I make a test of one out of several thousand clicks, it's not much of an audit, is it.

Again, I think there are good and honest programs out there, but as Maxfalcon says, it's human nature to stray when there is no regulation at all.

And we have none.

**axl** · 10-28-2005 11:02 AM

I don’t agree that dishonesty/thievery is human nature because both are known to be morally wrong. I would agree however that for some it has become a natural progression, based on greed, convenience, and evolution of the machine.

I am not going to name any names, mostly because I didn't have them on a voice recorder so its all hearsay, but I recently was sitting at a bar with no less than three affiliate managers from different programs who all talked openly about cheating & fraud!

The key to minimizing (not sure you can eliminate it 100%) the effect is to develop good relationships with your affiliate managers.

Has any casino or online gaming establishment ever actually had a legitimate audit where some suit comes in unannounced and starts going through books - I doubt it!

**Dominique** · 10-28-2005 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by axl

Has any casino or online gaming establishment ever actually had a legitimate audit where some suit comes in unannounced and starts going through books - I doubt it!

Casinos - yes.

Affiliate programs - nope!

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